Sample NFA Trust

[ungawa]

The test of any legal document is what happens when it's challenged. When ATF or the local cops attack your right to be in physical possession of an NFA firearm, for example.

Or the local cops and the state police. For example

[dbooksta]

I don't find fear-mongering lawyers to be particularly helpful. As was previously noted:

Lawyers make mistakes. I clean them up all the time. Even if they don't, law and regulations are subjective to a degree. For one lawyer to win another has to lose. You can always get screwed by a different lawyer (such as a prosecutor). Then lose your NFA toys or go to prison or both. Then what? Well, you have the piece of mind that you can pay another lawyer and sue your former law firm from prison. Guess who runs out of representation first?

All you trust lawyers are selling insurance, but unlike insurance companies you don't have a pool of regulated, escrowed assets to back up your contracts.

As you note, there are plenty of defective trusts out there, and NFA trusts in particular have so far withstood negligible degrees of legal scrutiny.

So what are you selling? A legal instrument that has at best been looked at by a few partner lawyers, offering no guarantees, and with nothing standing behind their credibility other than the fact that they haven't been banned from the commercial practice by other members of their club ("bar").

At least an open-source trust could enjoy the scrutiny of many sets of eyes from all sides of the system, who could identify and correct "bugs" before somebody's life depends on it. (Especially if lawyers weren't so intent on maintaining their cartel....)

[Gun Trust Lawyer, David G]

We have clients who have been contact by ATF because of invalid trusts in order to pickup their weapons. We have been able to resolve the issues by amending and modifying their trust documents to ATF's satisfaction. Most of the invalid trusts that are floating around are invalid for one of the following reasons 1) improper designations, 2) improper execution, or 3) failure to fund the trust. Those that are valid, often do not deal with the actual circumstances of the individual and his family - their sole purpose is to achieve an approved form 4 or form 1 without regard to anyone else.

For some people this is fine, many like myself, have been brought up to respect guns and train people on the responsibility and duties that go along with firearms ownership. I am simply stating that if you read a traditional trust you can see that your duties and obligations in many situations could cause your agents or others to violate the NFA. I fully understand that, you may not be caught nor punished for the violation. We all speed at times and are rarely given a ticket. Does that make it legal? Unlike a speeding ticket, a NFA violation is not a $50 fine. If you consider that fear mongering, that is your right. I think its just common sense. We all know what the ATF has done in the past and how unpredictable they are.

While our trust has not been challenged by the AFT, many of the provisions in the trust come from case law and while there may be litigation over the actions taken within the trust, its highly unlikely that there will be litigation over the trust from ATF's perspective because the provisions they are concerned with are very minor issues within the trust. ATF only looks at the trusts in order to determine if they are valid trusts under state law and not whether a provision in the trust gives proper instructions.

I think you make a valid point and would agree that ATF's approval on a Form 4 or Form 1 does not mean your trust is valid nor that you are rightfully in possession.

[GunLawyer001]

I don't find fear-mongering lawyers to be particularly helpful. . . .

In that case, you don't understand the "counseling" role of a lawyer.

It's relatively cheap to pay a lawyer up front, to avoid problems. If you don't do that, if you are immune to the "fear mongering" (and I'm not talking about lawyers who fabricate tales of disasters narrowly-averted through their skill and brilliance, I'm talking about warnings of actual dangers here), then you may find yourself hiring legal talent when it's no longer optional. The rates are higher then.

Think about it, a law firm is a business. Who would YOU prefer to negotiate a rate with:
- a client who doesn't really need you right now, but might be interested in setting up his affairs the right way; or
- a client who just winged it on his own, screwed up badly, and is now facing the threat of forfeitures, prison, fines, and loss of gun rights forever?

You don't have to take the free advice. I'll be there to help you pick up the pieces later.

And FWIW, I don't do NFA trusts for clients, I do corporations and LLC's. My clients aren't really looking for multi-generational probate avoidance mechanisms, they're looking to get their toys when their CLEO won't sign. I like LLC's for this, they are simple to operate in a way that avoids invalidation, the duties are simple, there are few corporate record-keeping requirements, and there can be just one human being involved. Simple, neat, effective, and time-tested as an NFA holding entity.

[Gun Trust Lawyer, David G]

GunLawyer001 - 5 years ago people use to say the same thing about LLC's vs Corporations. They are not tested, today there is rarely a situation that a Corporation has an advantage over an LLC (unless you are going public).

I guess the use of a corporation over a partnership is fear mongering, until you get sued. While some may refer to lawyers as fear mongering, its the knowledge of preventing issues in the future that we deal with on a daily basis.

LLC's work well in PA until you die or become incapacitated. I have always wanted to take the concepts of a trust and merge them with an LLC. If you are interested let me know.

[ungawa]

LLC's work well in PA until you die or become incapacitated.

They also work well when you have 20 guns pointed at your head, spike strips set for you on two highways, and a state cop who is very determined to get something on you to save face. And then you go home with all your guns and eat dinner.

[Gun Trust Lawyer, David G]

I guess I'd be accused of fear mongering if I disagreed with you before that actually happened.

They also work well when you have 20 guns pointed at your head, spike strips set for you on two highways, and a state cop who is very determined to get something on you to save face. And then you go home with all your guns and eat dinner.

[Gun Trust Lawyer, David G]

The issues should be covered so that in the event of your incapacity or death, those that will receive control or possession of the items will have some idea of what to do under federal law as well as the state where they happen to be living. The problem is you do not know who will survive you.