Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Berwyn, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Sample NFA Trust

    Can anybody who has successfully registered to a PA Revocable Living Trust post samples of the "Declaration of Trust" and "Certification of Trust" documents they used?

    (I know there are lawyers who will draft these, and I know there are arguments about Trust vs. LLC, getting the verbiage right, etc. But it's not worth it for me to pay $300+ for a lawyer to review my trust when I'm just using it to register a cheap SBR.)

    We should maintain an "at-your-own-risk" open-source PA NFA Trust.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Greentree, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    I disagree. With the penalties for illegaly owning an NFA weapon being what they are. I think $300 is very reasonable.

    Why chance it with 20 years in prison and/or $250,000 in fines on the line?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    (Philadelphia County)
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    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Quote Originally Posted by vrocco View Post
    I disagree. With the penalties for illegaly owning an NFA weapon being what they are. I think $300 is very reasonable.

    Why chance it with 20 years in prison and/or $250,000 in fines on the line?
    +1 there is no price for peace of mind.
    Warning: I may not read responses to OP before posting

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    Wagontown, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    So, that's a "no"?

    No one has one they'd be willing to share?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Private, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    you dont want to pay the money, and want some who DID pay the money to just give you a trust document they paid for?

    HARRUMPH.
    "Oderint Dum Metuant" - BMFH

    "Tact is for people not witty enough to use sarcasm"

    Note: any whingeing crazy that hits my PM inbox will be deleted without reply

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Northampton County, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
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    8727361

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Quote Originally Posted by vrocco View Post
    I disagree. With the penalties for illegaly owning an NFA weapon being what they are. I think $300 is very reasonable.

    Why chance it with 20 years in prison and/or $250,000 in fines on the line?
    You're being a little dramatic. It's only 10 years in prison

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Bechtelsville, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Not to mention the fact that depending on what is provided and how may: 1. constitute the illegal practice of law without a license; and 2. violate the attorney's/law firm's copyright. Lastly, just having the language doesn't mean that you still won't violate PA's trust law. Every trust is specific to the settlor and he may not have had the same desires as you. Moreover, the declaration and Certification aren't going to explain the operation of the trust and what can/cannot be done. While many don't realize it, most attorneys charge at least $600 for a regular trust (non-specialized) and in Philly prices start around $1000.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Bucks Cty, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    I think we paid $450 for a Gun Trust from a lawyer recommended on this site. Best $ ever spent for peace of mind and he will update for free as we ad toys.
    "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog."

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Northampton County, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
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    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Quote Originally Posted by SigForLife View Post
    Not to mention the fact that depending on what is provided and how may: 1. constitute the illegal practice of law without a license; and 2. violate the attorney's/law firm's copyright.
    I have no horse in this race for sure. But this single point is of interest to me. If someone pays you to produce a trust can you really copyright the language in the trust?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Berwyn, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Some of these warnings are melodramatic. Many people have done NFA registrations on Trusts produced with Quicken WillMaker. Copying one of those is a cheap and easy way to go.

    There are known "defects" in many publicly available trust drafts for many states, so there are theoretical risks in depending on public trust documents if your trust or NFA registration is ever challenged. But has anyone heard of a trust defect actually affecting an NFA registration? Has anyone even heard of a trust undergoing legal scrutiny by the BATFE to determine whether it is effective for the state in which it was organized? Lawyers get into arguments all the time amongst themselves about the sufficiency and soundness of trust documents. And state trust law isn't part of the BATFE's business. They're in this to collect taxes and keep restricted items out of the hands of prohibited persons.

    It seems unlikely you'd be fined or jailed for unintentionally using a defective trust to register a weapon. Maybe the feds would take it away instead of letting you correct the trust....

    Of course you can pay a law firm many hundreds of dollars to draw up a trust "specific to you." Odds are it would be equally effective for any other PA resident with a few changes to names and addresses. Odds are they're using the same boilerplate for all their clients. Presumably you're paying for the lawyer to stand behind the document if you use it and run into problems. Maybe you're also "licensing his copyright" on the language.

    If you want "peace of mind" pay a lawyer to sign off on everything. For those who don't want to pay for that insurance let's build an "open-source" NFA trust. Lawyers don't have a monopoly on drafting trusts, even though they would like to....

    As soon as I find some time I'll post some links to publicly available trust documents for those brazen enough to "practice law" without paying protection money to the legal cartel.

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