Father to son transfer (handgun)

[clawedjird]

Thanks for the input! I should have clarified, he's not worried about me having an accident with the gun. He's worried that if it somehow got stolen and the thief injured someone with it (for ex.), he might be held liable if I testified in court that it belonged to me...given that he has a lot more to lose (for the accident victim to pursue, in other words), because I'm an impoverished student. I think I'll just go through the FFL for peace of mind.

[General Geoff]

he might be held liable if I testified in court that it belonged to me...

I think an FFL transfer would not make one bit of difference in a civil trial as far as determining liability. It's not required for a legal transfer of ownership. Someone trying to go after your dad for something you did, will not be deterred from doing so just because a couple slips of paper were filled out and money exchanged hands with an FFL.

[Statkowski]

You are 18, your father is older (obviously). You cannot do an FFL transfer. Why? Because you're under 21.

If your father is so concerned about some imagined liability, have him put it in writing, notarized if it makes him feel better. End of liability worry.

[GunLawyer001]

I think an FFL transfer would not make one bit of difference in a civil trial as far as determining liability. It's not required for a legal transfer of ownership. Someone trying to go after your dad for something you did, will not be deterred from doing so just because a couple slips of paper were filled out and money exchanged hands with an FFL.

Au contraire:

§ 6111. Sale or transfer of firearms

. . .

(d) Defense.--Compliance with the provisions of this section shall be a defense to any criminal complaint under the laws of this Commonwealth or other claim or cause of action under this chapter arising from the sale or transfer of any firearm.

[MDJschool]

I think an FFL transfer would not make one bit of difference in a civil trial as far as determining liability. It's not required for a legal transfer of ownership. Someone trying to go after your dad for something you did, will not be deterred from doing so just because a couple slips of paper were filled out and money exchanged hands with an FFL.

Au contraire:
§ 6111. Sale or transfer of firearms
. . .
(d) Defense.--Compliance with the provisions of this section shall be a defense to any criminal complaint under the laws of this Commonwealth or other claim or cause of action under this chapter arising from the sale or transfer of any firearm.

Where the provisions of this section shall not apply, and only through this section are certain acts authorized as an agent of the government, utilizing a 'licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer' for the transfer, under the rules of being that agent, would not be compliance with the provisions.

[GunLawyer001]

Where the provisions of this section shall not apply, and only through this section are certain acts authorized as an agent of the government, utilizing a 'licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer' for the transfer, under the rules of being that agent, would not be compliance with the provisions.

I'm not getting your point in this context. I think you need to break that sentence down into the component points.

[clawedjird]

You are 18, your father is older (obviously). You cannot do an FFL transfer. Why? Because you're under 21.

I'm actually 21, so there's no age-related issues. I told my dad that his liability wouldn't change simply because we put the gun transfer in writing (because the law doesn't require it at all), but he continues to insist otherwise. He hasn't looked at the gun laws himself, which I think is the problem. I'm just going to go to a notary or FFL to make him happy...

Side note: This isn't even his gun, in reality. I bought it a year ago and it's registered in his name since I was 20 at the time.

Thanks for all the advice.

[MDJschool]

He hasn't looked at the gun laws himself, which I think is the problem. I'm just going to go to a notary or FFL to make him happy...
Side note: This isn't even his gun, in reality. I bought it a year ago and it's registered in his name since I was 20 at the time.

On box 33 of APPLICATION/RECORD OF SALE (Form SP 4-113, 8-2007), it states that:
I VERIFY THE FACTS THAT I HAVE SET FORTH IN BLOCKS 5-32 OF THIS FORM ARE TRUE AND CORRECT TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, INFORMATION, AND BELIEF. THIS VERIFICATION IS MADE SUBJECT TO BOTH THE PENALTIES OF SECTION 4904 OF THE CRIMES CODE (18 PA.C.S. 4904) RELATING TO UNSWORN FALSICIATION TO AUTHORITIES AND THE UNIFORM FIREARMS ACT. I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MAKING OF ANY FALSE WRITTEN STATEMENT OR THE EXHIBITING OF ANY FALSE MISREPRESENTED IDENTIFICATION WITH RESPECT TO THIS APPLICATION IS A CRIME PUNISHABLE AS A FELONY.

If the transfer has already taken place (as you state, a year ago), then it would seem like claiming the transfer is taking place on the date that this forum is signed and dated is not true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, and you may be subject to criminal liability for unsworn falsification to authorities.

[GunLawyer001]

I'm actually 21, so there's no age-related issues. I told my dad that his liability wouldn't change simply because we put the gun transfer in writing (because the law doesn't require it at all), but he continues to insist otherwise. He hasn't looked at the gun laws himself, which I think is the problem. I'm just going to go to a notary or FFL to make him happy...

Side note: This isn't even his gun, in reality. I bought it a year ago and it's registered in his name since I was 20 at the time.

Thanks for all the advice.

As I noted above, and quoted the applicable law, his liability DOES CHANGE if the transfer goes through an FFL.

On box 33 of APPLICATION/RECORD OF SALE (Form SP 4-113, 8-2007), it states that:
I VERIFY THE FACTS THAT I HAVE SET FORTH IN BLOCKS 5-32 OF THIS FORM ARE TRUE AND CORRECT TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, INFORMATION, AND BELIEF. THIS VERIFICATION IS MADE SUBJECT TO BOTH THE PENALTIES OF SECTION 4904 OF THE CRIMES CODE (18 PA.C.S. 4904) RELATING TO UNSWORN FALSICIATION TO AUTHORITIES AND THE UNIFORM FIREARMS ACT. I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MAKING OF ANY FALSE WRITTEN STATEMENT OR THE EXHIBITING OF ANY FALSE MISREPRESENTED IDENTIFICATION WITH RESPECT TO THIS APPLICATION IS A CRIME PUNISHABLE AS A FELONY.

If the transfer has already taken place (as you state, a year ago), then it would seem like claiming the transfer is taking place on the date that this forum is signed and dated is not true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, and you may be subject to criminal liability for unsworn falsification to authorities.

There's nothing to prevent the son from giving it back to his father 10 seconds before they walk into the FFL's premises. Further, I can't imagine that any DA would even contemplate a prosecution based on someone trying to get a firearm into the Record of Sale database, where neither PA resident is a prohibited person. Finally, I can't offhand remember a question that explicitly contemplates that the lawful father-to-son transfer has not already taken place, except by implication of the identities of the transferor and transferee, and in this case the two parties would properly identify themselves.

If the facts were different, if two unrelated PA residents had illegally transferred a firearm a year before, and they sought to fix the paper trail now, then maybe you'd have something. But in that case, there would be no remedy, the crime would have occurred already and the gun would be contraband.

[clawedjird]

Thanks for the reiteration! I must've skimmed over your earlier statement (I think it was the green font lol). Anyway I'm definitely going to go through an FFL dealer in order to cover all the bases.

To clarify, there's no way anyone can know whether or not the paperless "transfer" of ownership occurred a year ago (or any time since) after I had my father purchase the gun for me, so I have absolutely no fear that any father-son prior transfer issues will surface at the FFL. As far as the state is concerned, my Dad is the gun's owner. When I pointed out earlier that my father purchased the gun for me, it was simply to emphasize that I was not new to the gun (or guns in general) and that my dad has no fears whatsoever regarding my competence or responsibility with guns (as someone implied). His fears concerning liability were more along the lines of, "what if someone breaks into your house, steals the gun from your gun safe, and then shoots someone with it?"...

In any case, my question has been answered. Thanks for the help!