Needing Training to get Permit

[762xIan]

Training requirement?....you have to be kidding...NO NO and NO.

What would the Founding Fathers think about this? 'Nuff said,

My .02

[soberbyker]

Soberbyker talks about motorcycle safety classes. That is great and most people will agree that motorcycle safety training saves lives. But there is an important difference between a license to ride and an LTCF. The motor vehicle license is a privilege. It can be revoked for any number of offenses. Bearing arms is a right.

I am well aware of the differences and if you've read the entire thread you'd know I've also voiced against mandatory training, although I didn't make the connection you did as to our right then becoming a privilege. I merely brought up the motorcycle comparison as a way to FUND voluntary training for all, so that the lack of cash would not prevent some folks from training they may otherwise utilize. I also thought that if we as a community offered to help defray the costs of training, like the motorcycling community did, we just may get a little more respect from the government and anti's as responsible people willing to help "our own" as well as allowing everyone a chance to better their skills and knowledge of the firearms in general.

[Lougotzz]

You will never get respect from the anti's.

Conservatives and gun owners better realize that you can not make friends with these people. they are on a misson to destroy this country and everything it was founded upon.

This is the exact trap all republican/ conservatives/gun owners fall into. these people say we just want a small tax increase, we just want amnisty once(regan years), we want sensible gun laws( ban everything).


Get the picture. They hate us! They always will hate us and they wont stop hatting us!!!!!

[cz_40p]

I have read through the entire thread. While I agree that owning a firearm is a right guaranteed by both the US and State Constitutions, I don't have a problem requiring some sort of training to have a LTCF.

In Pa anyone can own a vehicle, driving it requires a license. If training was a requirement our permits would be acceptable in more states for reciprocity.
It is my understanding that the two things that have kept more states from accepting PA permits are training and 24 hour access to permit info. The later has been addressed. If we had required training , our permits would have a better chance at being accepted across the country.

I have been looking for a good source of training in N.E. Pa for years. We don't even have an indoor range. There is an indoor range in Scranton, however it is small and limited to law enforcement only. If training were required for a permit there would at least be a reason to try and make a business out of it. You don't need a permit to keep a gun in your home or to carry openly so your basic rights under both constitutions would not be in question.

The training requirements need not be that stringent. I think Florida has the right idea, DD214's and NRA classes are acceptable forms of training. The local sheriffs should have absolutely no sway over what is an acceptable form of training! There is no reason to turn this into another form of gun control by requiring all sorts of silly hoops that one must jump through.

If we were smart this is a bone we could throw to the PhillyCrats who are trying to curtail our rights. OK we will submit to training to get a LTCF but the state must build local training centers. (indoor ranges)

[TRB]

I am well aware of the differences and if you've read the entire thread you'd know I've also voiced against mandatory training, although I didn't make the connection you did as to our right then becoming a privilege. I merely brought up the motorcycle comparison as a way to FUND voluntary training for all, so that the lack of cash would not prevent some folks from training they may otherwise utilize. I also thought that if we as a community offered to help defray the costs of training, like the motorcycling community did, we just may get a little more respect from the government and anti's as responsible people willing to help "our own" as well as allowing everyone a chance to better their skills and knowledge of the firearms in general.

I never post on a thread that I have not read in it's entirety.

You are not being attacked. I did not claim that you suggest mandatory training. I referenced your ideas only in context to the thread.

The idea of as "us as a community" is exactly what universal training attempts to eliminate. If everyone receives the training then we are on equal footing. It also would go a long way toward eliminating the fears in those who do not understand. As far as respect from the government goes, by law they must respect our rights because they are rights. They may try to eliminate them through putting restrictions on licensing thereby turning our right into a privilege. That is politics and against which we must be ever vigilant.

If you feel threatened or offended that was not my intention. Please accept my apologies.

[ChamberedRound]

In Pa anyone can own a vehicle, driving it requires a license. If training was a requirement our permits would be acceptable in more states for reciprocity.
It is my understanding that the two things that have kept more states from accepting PA permits are training and 24 hour access to permit info. The later has been addressed. If we had required training , our permits would have a better chance at being accepted across the country.

I have to reiterate what TRB said earlier in the thread: driving is a PRIVILEGE, not a right. I don't have a problem with the govt. requiring training for those wish to exercise a privilege. Because driving is a privilege granted by state government, they can take it away. However, no one should be REQUIRED to train for the purposes of exercising a right, because the government can't take away someone's inalienable rights, regardless of whether they receive training or not.

On reciprocity: I applaud states that are willing to accept PA's laws for what they are. As for everyone else, Pennsylvanians shouldn't have to curtail their rights for the sake of these people. In comparison to other state's gun laws, PA's are relatively lenient, and I wish to continue to enjoy that level of freedom. If that means I can't carry in the PRNJ, PRMD, PRDE, etc. than so be it. Most people's time is spent in their home state anyway.

On nationwide carry: due to PA's relatively lenient gun laws, I quite frankly feel there's nowhere to go but down as far as our freedoms are concerned on this issue. Anyone who tries to legislate this will have legislators from every urban area in the country imposing restrictions. Quite frankly, I don't want some Congressman from LA, NYC, or Chicago telling me how I can (or can't) carry a weapon in PA.

If we were smart this is a bone we could throw to the PhillyCrats who are trying to curtail our rights. OK we will submit to training to get a LTCF but the state must build local training centers. (indoor ranges)

Throwing them a bone won't solve the problem; it'll only make them want another bone.

[soberbyker]

I never post on a thread that I have not read in it's entirety.

You are not being attacked. I did not claim that you suggest mandatory training. I referenced your ideas only in context to the thread.

If you feel threatened or offended that was not my intention. Please accept my apologies.

No Problem TRB, I guess I did kind of feel like you were saying I basically had my head up my butt, which, on occasion, I've been known to do. You did make some valid points as to privilege vs. right. I was just attempting to find a way to alleviate the cost of training because someone in an earlier post had mentioned training was too costly, it sounded like that person wanted training but not not afford it. Please accept my apology for making you feel the need to clarify what you said.

[TRB]

No Problem TRB, I guess I did kind of feel like you were saying I basically had my head up my butt, which, on occasion, I've been known to do. You did make some valid points as to privilege vs. right. I was just attempting to find a way to alleviate the cost of training because someone in an earlier post had mentioned training was too costly, it sounded like that person wanted training but not not afford it. Please accept my apology for making you feel the need to clarify what you said.

It's cool.

The crux of my proposal is that everyone is to be trained in secondary school. There would be no added expense other than what is taken out of real estate taxes to support the schools. Our children would learn to shoot correctly. Our military would be stronger for it. It would quell most of the gun phobia through education. We fear that which we do not understand.

If this training were to be taken in say, eleventh or twelfth grade, within a dozen or so years everyone who graduates from high school would have basic firearms training. Those who drop out would not receive the training. It might encourage some to stay in school. Gang members who drop out would not be trained as well as the kids that stay in school.

As far as trying to curry favor with states that now withhold reciprocity, Chambered Round is right. Those states need to step up to the standard of respect for the Second Amendment that is established here in Pennsylvania. We should not lower ourselves and accept their attempts to turn basic rights into a privilege to be legislated into eventual oblivion a a date to be named.