What makes a 1911 a 1911?

[LittleRedToyota]

hey yinz...

after reading all the glock vs. 1911 stuff going on lately, another pafoa member sent me a PM asking essentially "what makes a 1911 a 1911? is an XD a 1911?"

i thought this would be a good, technically informative thread. (assuming we can keep it from becoming "my glock can beat up your 1911"...please, lets just stick to the technical discussion of how they work rather than getting into another peeing contest). and i would like to see some input from those more knowledgeable than i.

so, here is my answer. please add comments, and, especially, correct anything that i may have gotten wrong:

i'm actually far from the most qualified guy on the board to answer this, but i'll do the best i can.

the XD is not in the 1911 category...it's actually closer to the glock category (though it is not really a glock clone).

basically all 1911's are essentially clones of the Colts...though some are shorter (and, probably there are some that are longer).

they all look roughly the same, and, more importantly they all work the same internally.

all 1911's:

- have exposed hammers (whereas glocks...and, i think XD's also...don't have any hammer at all. the firing pin has a spring and pulling the trigger moves the firing pin backwards against the spring until some point in the trigger pull where the trigger connector loses contact with the firing pin and the firing pin is then propelled forward.);

- are single action only--meaning the hammer must be cocked before firing (whereas a gun like a SIG is double-action/single action--meaning the gun can be fired starting with the hammer cocked or with the hammer "down"...this is the way many revolvers work...though there are also single action only revolvers. glocks...and, i think XDs...are essentially double-action only, though glocks actually use what is called "safe-action" and the firing pin is partially "cocked" to begin with. not sure exacly how XDs work in this regard.)

- have thumb safeties (where as DA/SA guns, like SIGs, sometimes do not have thumb safeties. instead, they have a "de-cocker". the gun is made safe just by having the hammer down. the decocker allows you to move the hammer from cocked to down without the risk of it accidentally discharging a round. some DA/SA guns have a decocker/safety which is a combination of a decocker and a safety.)

- have grip safeties (though many other guns, such as XDs also have grip safeties)

- are meant to be carried cocked and locked (since they are single action only and have a thumb safety).

- i'm pretty sure they all use single stack magazines (where as glocks, i think XDs, and many other guns use double stack magazines).

i just found a link that shows really well how they work internally:

http://www.m1911.org/full_1911desc.htm

for comparison, here is a cool animation that shows how glocks work:

http://www.sniperworld.com/glock/

[dgg9]

Pretty good start, although companies like Para Ordnance make 1911-pattern guns are double stack and I think also some DAO models (not positive about the latter).

[avizpls]

The agrument of whether a double stack "1911" is a 1911 or not will go on between snobs and shooters for years to come. I belive it is, but not to be heralded for its authenticity.

[Emptymag]

LittleRedToyota,

THANKS for those links!
I had lost them and they are a GREAT visual for explaining how a pistol works to newbies. Especially at work, where you can't show them hands-on!

I'll also point out to those who missed it, that by clicking on the little boxes, you can "see thru" and/or move parts out of the way to see the internals in action!

[Frenchy]

hey yinz...

after reading all the glock vs. 1911 stuff going on lately, another pafoa member sent me a PM asking essentially "what makes a 1911 a 1911? is an XD a 1911?"

i thought this would be a good, technically informative thread. (assuming we can keep it from becoming "my glock can beat up your 1911"...please, lets just stick to the technical discussion of how they work rather than getting into another peeing contest). and i would like to see some input from those more knowledgeable than i.

Knowledge is what this board is all bout, learning and comparing notes.

so, here is my answer. please add comments, and, especially, correct anything that i may have gotten wrong:

i'm actually far from the most qualified guy on the board to answer this, but i'll do the best i can.

the XD is not in the 1911 category...it's actually closer to the glock category (though it is not really a glock clone).

Many consider all pistols to be 1911 if they even resemble a 1911. You are correct tho in saying most pistols are not 1911.
By definition, a 1911 is a model. As many of us call a snomobile a skidoo, many also call most pistols a 1911.

basically all 1911's are essentially clones of the Colts...though some are shorter (and, probably there are some that are longer).

Colt, actually Browning if I am not wrong is the first 1911, JM Browning made the first prototype of the 1911, the US. Government made specifications and requirements for the sidearm officers where to carry. This is where we get the name Officer model. The contract based on the original JM Browning drawings and prototype where sent out to many manufacturers including but not limited to Colt and Believe it or not, Singer… Yes the trusty sewing company.
The idea was to replace the .38 revolver that most officers carried at the time. JM Browning was working for Colt at this time and his design was chosen to be tested.

they all look roughly the same, and, more importantly they all work the same internally.

True, but more importantly they all have the same specifications. There are variations such as field grade, mil spec, and more recently the racing category. But they all function and have the same parts as the original drawing.

all 1911's:

- have exposed hammers (whereas glocks...and, i think XD's also...don't have any hammer at all. the firing pin has a spring and pulling the trigger moves the firing pin backwards against the spring until some point in the trigger pull where the trigger connector loses contact with the firing pin and the firing pin is then propelled forward.);

Important to note that most pistols at the time the 1911 was made had hammers, the specific shape of the 1911 and its design have not changed much other then making the original more functional.
Whereas: many other pistols also have a hammer inside that is not visible. One can think of the Ruger mk. ll some also have a firing pin that is propelled by a spring.
All true 1911 have a hammer and sear system very close to what revolvers had.

1911- are single action only--meaning the hammer must be cocked before firing (whereas a gun like a SIG is double-action/single action--meaning the gun can be fired starting with the hammer cocked or with the hammer "down"...this is the way many revolvers work...though there are also single action only revolvers. glocks...and, i think XDs...are essentially double-action only, though glocks actually use what is called "safe-action" and the firing pin is partially "cocked" to begin with. not sure exacly how XDs work in this regard.)

It was once the case, and although most 1911 still are only single action, there are models out there that have s/a d/a The double action only being used on the first round.

- have thumb safeties (where as DA/SA guns, like SIGs, sometimes do not have thumb safeties. instead, they have a "de-cocker". the gun is made safe just by having the hammer down. the decocker allows you to move the hammer from cocked to down without the risk of it accidentally discharging a round. some DA/SA guns have a decocker/safety which is a combination of a decocker and a safety.)

Best safetly in the world, keep that finger off the trigger untill you need it there!.

- have grip safeties (though many other guns, such as XDs also have grip safeties)

Actually, the grip safety is one of those things that came in later developments, the original 1911's had no grip safety See the picture of the original Browning 1911.

- are meant to be carried cocked and locked (since they are single action only and have a thumb safety).

Again, there are d/a s/a 1911 out there today where one could carry without being cocked and locked.

- i'm pretty sure they all use single stack magazines (where as glocks, i think XDs, and many other guns use double stack magazines).

Modern variations of the original 1911 have double stack as well, These are after market parts that can be purchased and although the original 1911 only had single stack, remember 1911 is a model type not a specific gun. Manufacturers have made 1911's grow with the public need to have more pricision and more capacity guns. ALthough the original model 1911 was so made that all the manufactured guns in that time could interchange parts, today, there are varients of the 1911 models that have slight modifications in them. Generally speaking today, when some one refers to a 1911, they rarely mean the original Officer model, they generaly tend to mean a pistol similar to..

i just found a link that shows really well how they work internally:

http://www.m1911.org/full_1911desc.htm

for comparison, here is a cool animation that shows how glocks work:

http://www.sniperworld.com/glock/

Other models today that have very similar looks and parts to the 1911 are the FN and the CZ. Both of these are almost identical to the Browning High Power that JM Browning also designed.

[jdlv4_0]

Frenchy's post is pretty accurate except for a few minor deatils, what he says is the "original 1911" is not a 1911, the 1911 didn't get it's designation untill after it was approved the model shown is actually a 1902 if I am not mistaken, and the Officers model came out after the commander, some time after the 1950's

For the history of the 1911 see here:
http://m1911.org/full_history.htm

There is also a model of 1910 which is SUPER rare, I'll try and find pictures of one later.

All for all Frenchy's post was excellent, I just had to split hairs.

[bloomautomatic]

I'd say what makes a gun a 1911 is if it is in the style of the original Colt 1911, or 1911A1 and the vast majority of parts interchange.

A ballester molina is has almost all of the same features of a 1911 (sans grip safety), but I wouldn't call it a 1911. I'd call it a 1911 style pistol.

Vince

[1911shooter]

Its a model that we refer to. as we know browning never made them he designed it, as colt, remington rand and singer all made them even ford built some. and the double stack i like and is a 1911 i just cant find one to fit my hand. the acctual pistol every one refers to is the revised 1911-A1 which was approved buy the military with the grip safty and different angle to the grip we have now. i'm sure there are some points i'm wrong on. but i do use own and love them as with all the other types i own. i used to hate the 1911 design till i acctually shot one and went to a few schools with it.

[thirtyonebravo]

Just to add to the original poster, and Frenchy's comments on it, the GLOCK design uses a striker, instead of a hammer/firing-pin. It's essentially a spring-loaded firing pin, but there is no hammer (in the conventional sense that is) involved.

more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_pin

[Mtbkski]

Well if nothing else. I found out that I'm not the only one that wasn't exactly sure just what was a "1911". Thanks for posting this LittleRed. It has been rather interesting. And now I at least have some idea of what you guys mean when you say a "1911".

This Site Rocks. Keep it up guys. Your great.