Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Question Permit to carry - muddy waters

    Hypothetically (sp?) speaking, if someone was say, pulled over for a vehicle code violation , and was found to be in posession of a handgun that was not loaded and was buttoned into a soft holster, and no ammunition for the gun was anywhere in the vehicle - would they be breaking the law if they did not have a permit to carry? Lets say that this person was transporting the gun along with all of his other worldly possessions from the house his ex-girlfriend kicked him out of to his new home. Would that person need to go out and get a permit to transport the weapon to his new home? The law seems pretty unclear in regards to this, or at least it is not specific enough to address such a situation.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Permit to carry - muddy waters

    Just put it in a case and drop it in the trunk. Then keep ammo in a separate compartment. If the gun is in the trunk, then put the ammo in the back passenger area.

    Just the way you'd do if you were to go to the store to buy a gun and then you take it home.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Permit to carry - muddy waters

    Well, that would be fine if it were really a hypothetical question! But lets say now that this person was then charged with handgun carried without a lisence? I'm wondering if there is a legal defense. It was not in a "case" per se, but it was not concealed and it was fastened in the holster and there was no ammunition in the gun or in the car for that gun.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Permit to carry - muddy waters

    Quote Originally Posted by Bmack View Post
    Well, that would be fine if it were really a hypothetical question! But lets say now that this person was then charged with handgun carried without a lisence? I'm wondering if there is a legal defense. It was not in a "case" per se, but it was not concealed and it was fastened in the holster and there was no ammunition in the gun or in the car for that gun.
    At that point I would say that this person needs to acquire the services of a knowledgeable attorney as soon as possible and stop posting about their ongoing situation on a public forum.

    This isn't meant to be mean, it is simply meant to protect that individual.

    This is most likely the law this person was charged under:

    Quote Originally Posted by PCS Title 18, Chapter 61, Subchapter A, 6106
    (a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

    (b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:
    1. Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.
    2. Members of the army, navy or marine corps of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
    3. The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this Commonwealth.
    4. Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.
    5. Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.
    6. Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.
    7. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.
    8. Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
    9. Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.
    10. Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.
    11. Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.
    The bolded exception is something to look into but really none of us here are qualified to apply the law to this person's specific situation and doing so will probably only exacerbate the problem.

    Speak with an attorney immediately.
    Last edited by danp; March 11th, 2007 at 05:09 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Permit to carry - muddy waters

    That is exactley what that person would do- I'm not offended. As for posting it here, nothing posted that wasn't already made public as far as allegations go.. Of course that person woould never admit to any guilt! Thank you for the response. I was having trouble finding that particular exception but I was pretty sure it existed.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Permit to carry - muddy waters

    The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he falls within one of the exceptions. The cops just have to show that he had a firearm in the car and he was not issued a PA License to Carry Firearms by his home county sheriff.

    There would be several possible ways to demonstrate to the DA that the defendant was moving; I'd assume that the car had other boxes and bags of stuff being moved at the same time, and that the arresting officer could confirm this. Perhaps the ex-girlfriend could verify the move (although that sort of testimony is inherently suspect). A new apartment lease, a new telephone account, a change of address form for the Post Office or PennDOT, these would all be useful to corroborate the tale.

    The exception requires proof, more than just saying that it happened around the time that you were changing residences; you need to be moving your stuff at the time.

    Get a lawyer. If the DA won't drop the case, demand a jury trial, that gives you 12 chances to at least hang the jury through a sympathetic juror. A bench trial probably won't work, the judge will tend to believe the cops.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Permit to carry - muddy waters

    2 things,

    Either comply with state law and get a permit (should be less than $35 for 5 years), or comply with federal law and put it in the trunk. OR don't get pulled over and searched....

    Feel free to choose...

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    Default Re: Permit to carry - muddy waters

    You do NOT need a permit to transport an unloaded handgun in your vehicle. As long as the gun/holster in not on your person (without a license) you have done nothing wrong. There is nothing "unclear" about moving any firearm from one place to another.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Permit to carry - muddy waters

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in PA View Post
    You do NOT need a permit to transport an unloaded handgun in your vehicle. As long as the gun/holster in not on your person (without a license) you have done nothing wrong. There is nothing "unclear" about moving any firearm from one place to another.
    Sorry, but yes, you certainly do need a license. If you carry a firearm in a vehicle, without a license, you obviously are guilty of this:

    "(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree."


    There are limited exceptions, such as moving residences, or travelling to a target range.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Permit to carry - muddy waters

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Sorry, but yes, you certainly do need a license. If you carry a firearm in a vehicle, without a license, you obviously are guilty of this:

    "(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree."


    There are limited exceptions, such as moving residences, or travelling to a target range.
    DanP allready posted the law on this:

    8# Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.


    The only fault is that he did not have it in a secure wrapper...
    "We shoot to stop. ... Unfortunately, death can be a byproduct."

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