GOA Alert: ATF proposes 2nd revision to 4473 to ease creation of illegal registry

[littlefitz]

Done.

[esh21167]

I'm not sure I understand. The uproar is because the already documented info is on one page instead of two? Does anyone think that if someone in power wanted 4473's, they would be concerned about only taking/photographing/copying one page?

[PocketProtector]

The only change should be delete.

[pens87pgh]

I'm not sure I understand. The uproar is because the already documented info is on one page instead of two? Does anyone think that if someone in power wanted 4473's, they would be concerned about only taking/photographing/copying one page?

The real concern is how easy this change makes it for ATF officials to go into an FFL, take single photographs of these forms that has ALL of our information and gun info and use that to create a registry. It's all about how much easier it becomes to now make that happen.

[Noah_Zark]

What are the details of this second revision?

I can't seem to find them in the post or the links.

Noah

[General Geoff]

The only change should be delete.

Yep, if they really wanna save paper they could just eliminate the 4473 altogether.

[57springer]

Isn’t it funny how every aspect of life is on hold for this virus except the government making moves to restrict firearms and liberty. How are they even doing this if they are not going to work? When is enough, enough?

good point !!

[GeneCC]

Disguised as mere compliance with the Paperwork Reduction Act, the ATF’s proposed amendments to the Form 4473 will record gun owners’ personal information on the same page as the firearm make, model, and serial number.

Sure does look like it would make mass scanning easier and less stressful on the scanners. At this time the Form 4473 has that information on it, has had it for years. Just in different places.

Assume two million purchases per month. If they scan one form every second or so, that means that 2,000,000 purchases is 556 hours. There are 168 hours in a month. That means for every two million purchases we're talking 3 months of so of scans. Naturally they'll buy more scanners for bulk purposes.

Once scanned in? We hand write those forms. I haven't worked with Optical Character recognition in many years. Seems like we'd have to have someone review those forms.

The BATF doesn't have enough time and staff to go over purchases by hand.

[GeneCC]

The real concern is how easy this change makes it for ATF officials to go into an FFL, take single photographs of these forms that has ALL of our information and gun info and use that to create a registry. It's all about how much easier it becomes to now make that happen.

They get a photograph.

How do they turn that information into a registry? If they have someone type it in, like the PSP handles the Sales Registry, we're talking years of work. I've been told this by an FFL, but the PSP is five years behind right now. If you bought a handgun today we're talking five years before the PSP knows about it. True? I don't know.

Turn those images into digital information? That's a tough problem. I remember when Optical Character Recognition first came out. For printed text it's fine.

The ATF requires legible handwriting. People are better at reading handwriting than machines.

If they just put that pages into a book? How do they organize it?


OK. Let's assume perfect OCR. You wrote it, they read it.

How do they know you still have it? How do they reconcile a resale?


We're talking millions of transactions per month over millions of people. Some die. Some sell their guns. Some guns are stolen or given away.


The best method of a gun registry is the Brady Law. They have positive ID on you. They know you bought something. They send investigators to your home. We fought the Brady law for this reason. The ink on it was not dry before Janet Reno and Bill created "FIST" - Firearms Identification and Statistical Tracking. Created a map of purchasers.


I don't care for making things easier for a gun registry. This change isn't really necessary.

That being said, the biggest hurdles to a gun registry are already over. They got Form 4473s and they got the Brady Law.

[GeneCC]

There is a big security hole that we should talk about. Emails.

Often firms will send you a recap of what you bought, where it's going and your name.

If you bought reloading components off of an Online firm? They mail you a receipt with the items. It's all there - they got the calibers and bullet weights. If you reload commercially without a license? Maybe the ATF wants to know that you're doing business without a license?

You may have bought accessories or magazines. They can send you a receipt for that purchase too. If Governor Wolf and a Democratic controlled legislature decides to ban hi cap magazines, they could ask the ISPs for emails. Seek out known sellers of gun magazines. Wouldn't take too long to weed out firms like Midway Arms, Palmetto State Armory and others. From them, to you.


If the sellers are real shitbags they resend the order to see if you liked the purchase. Maybe you want more? So now they've doubled the risk that some hacker rousted your ISP's email server looking for goodies has a bead on you.

Maybe they want you to review the product? Did you like that item? You bought that ten magazines for your AR 15. How did you like them? You didn't sign up for it, but you're part of their Marketing arm. For free. Worse, down the road a burglar might rip you off because some Hacker sold them your data.



I've had companies mail me requests for review YEARS after I made a purchase. I have at times consumed that order. Shot it down range. They don't care. They figure that emails are private. Nope.


People worry about the BATF and a gun registry. That's a valid concern.

They should also worry about Online sellers making your business convenient, not just for the BATF and Tom Wolf but also for burglars.