Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    Quote Originally Posted by buckengr View Post
    I don't fully grasp the perceived danger to preemption cases that some opponents of the PA SASO movement speak of.
    <SNIP>
    If SASOs are not the way, then another similar, easy to grasp initiative is needed that will build the network and attract the uninvolved public to take up the cause.
    The 2A effort in PA has been directed at the State Government level, specifically to deny Philadephia and Pittsburgh the ability to create 2A chaos in their own locations. By keeping the local preemption in place (limiting 2A legislative control in Hbg), it has stymied P&P from doing their own thing (always anti-2A) and also helps to hold down those kind of efforts in other local cities.

    The whole effort of 2A sanctuaries (in VA) is intended to move the fight (and authority) to the local cities because that state gov has already been lost (although efforts ought to be made to recover it). That is not the case in PA and there is still a valid reason to limit legislation to Hbg, that applies statewide, rather than having hundreds of little fiefdoms with authority to make firearms decisions all across the state (even if one perceives that to be helpful in some ways). There may come a time when the state level is lost (like VA) and other local efforts should be made to block the state from obscene actions - but not yet.

    However, I agree the side effect of the 2A sanctuary effort in VA, of coalescing local folks into 2A focused groups, is a good thing - but something else needs to create that in PA.

    Every organization, no matter their promoted purpose or success, has an interest in their own survival. When was the last time you heard of any organization to claim victory and terminate their group? So, don't expect perfection in any organization (they are all self-serving for better or worse), but look for ways of working together with as many organizations as possible to create the best efforts in the right places. And encourage those organizations not to attack each other.

    Every effort to protect the 2A must ultimately stir the citizens to VOTE FOR PRO-2A politicians, from local Gov & LE all the way up the chain. Every 2A voice needs to speak of the importance of understanding Constitutional Rights and voting 2A supporters in to political positions. Electing those with no understanding of the underlying Rights (especially 2A Rights) will only lead to further erosion of those unappreciated rights by elected, self-serving, dolts.

    ...
    Last edited by ImminentDanger; February 29th, 2020 at 11:22 PM.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    My understanding is that preemption prevents all firearm law in Pennsylvania. Pro, or anti.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    I understand the importance of preemption, with respect to not allowing municipalities to make laws more strict than state law. No contest. I'm all for it.

    I don't understand how passing ordinances that seek to impose extra penalties on government officials who violate their oath to uphold the 2nd Amendment is in any way threatening the strength of firearms preemption cases. Same goes for 2A sanctuary resolutions that serve to send a message to the state legislature that the people stand against them on this issue. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think this makes any sense.

    If a law violates the Constitution, everybody and their mother ought to be able to do something about it to stop it. Local municipalities should be able to pile on penalties against those who knowingly and willfully violate their oaths of office to violate the supreme law of the land, especially when the state authorities fail to act. That's the DUTY of every government official to respect the Constitution first and foremost over enforcing an unconstitutional law or ordinance. See: Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate

    By my understanding, that's effectively all these ordinances do: reaffirm the 2nd amendment in its rightful place as the supreme law of the land as incorporated by the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment.

    Also, the 2A sanctuary movement in VA does not seek to move the authority to the local level. That is a false premise. The goal is to recognize that the supreme authority has already preempted all further regulation of firearms that violate the Constitution on a Federal and state level and impose penalties on those who seek to ignore that fact.

    The VCDL and everyone else are actively fighting the Democrats ability to repeal the statewide firearms preemption law, specifically because a patchwork of MORE restrictive local ordinances that restrict 2A rights is a major problem.

    2A sanctuary ordinances reaffirm with a big flashing red arrow that the EXISTING Federal and state Constitutions are indeed the supreme law of the land and that NO government, including local and state, has the authority to regulate the right to keep and bear arms.

    See also: https://gunowners.org/wp-content/upl...er-26-2019.pdf
    Last edited by buckengr; March 1st, 2020 at 12:49 AM.
    I am not a lawyer.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    I don’t follow arguments about how ordinances that protect the right to keep and bear arms somehow violate the UFA preemption statute (18 Pa.C.S. 6120) that is also meant to protect, in large part, the right to keep and bear arms.

    Philadelphia and other municipalities in this state have ordinances that decriminalize marijuana possession. A good argument can be made that these ordinances are implicitly or field preempted by state law, specifically the Controlled Substances, Drugs, Device, and Cosmetic Act. Neither the state nor any other party has challenged these ordinances that I am aware of. As these ordinances favor the individual over the state, it is unlikely that these decriminalization ordinances will be challenged by anyone other than the state. What is wrong with an ordinance that favors the individual over the state? Sure, the Commonwealth could possibly challenge it, but I sure am not.

    Now the part in which government employees can be prosecuted is more tricky. I am sure that if a government employee is charged based on such an ordinance they will challenge it and possibly win. Though, I doubt they will win based solely on the basis of 18 Pa.C.S. 6120. Rather, they may prevail based on the existence of other state statutes that directly or indirectly authorize their conduct.

    The Sanctuary Second Amendment Movement has the potential to motivate more grass roots activism, generate positive publicity, swinging people to our side, and motivating people to vote.

    Unfortunately, I think part of the in fighting in the Pennsylvania RKBA community that I have read about is a battle for power and influence. I wish this would stop. I support the Second Amendment Sanctuary Movement in Pennsylvania, especially with the direction this state seems to be moving in.
    Last edited by Mosinshooter762; March 1st, 2020 at 01:42 AM.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    While it's great to see so many want to get involved in preserving Pennsylvania firearms rights, it appears to be extremely counterproductive right now. It's like watching 6 year olds play soccer, they all huddle up around the ball regardless of their position or teammates and get in one another's way.

    I'm a member of both the FOAC and the GOA, they both do good work but it would have been nice to see the GOA work along with the FOAC and prioritize exactly what needs to be done within this state and how to achieve that while forming a more unified front. Instead we have Facebook warriors spouting nonsense trying to ruin an organization who's been leading the charge on most of the nonsense the anti's here try and do over what is at best equal to a symbolic movement.

    That's fucking brilliant!

    I don't like everything Kim from the FOAC says and don't agree with some of his opinions, but I'm sure as Hell not going to try and discredit or impede him from what he has done and is doing that's for sure. As far as I'm concerned there are to many tough talking body armor wearing hard chargers out there on social media who have their stand off fantasies all played out in their brains impatiently and foolishly waiting for it to happen. Fortunately today's real battles are still won in court rooms and most of us have no idea how to fight in one of those, so maybe we should support and stand behind those in Pennsylvania who fight daily in that arena.

    "A house divided against itself, cannot stand."

    These are my general thoughts on this subject as well as other 2A topics that are taking place around the country which I have been following, they are not directed at anyone specifically on this thread or on this forum.
    Last edited by Hodgie; March 1st, 2020 at 05:23 AM.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    We will never prevail with all this infighting, added to the internal chaos of the NRA

    From a leadership standpoint, 2A is a rudderless ship.

    Virginia, on the other hand, witnessed grassroots unity

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    Quote Originally Posted by eagleclaw View Post
    We failed to defeat Bob Casey in 2018.
    Barletta lost by 660,000 votes. Only about five million people voted. Casey did not win by much.

    In 2018 a bit over 8,000,000 were registered to vote. Three million voters could have put Bobbie Jr out to pasture.


    Quote Originally Posted by eagleclaw View Post
    The GOP has virtually already thrown in the towel on the PA 2020 AG race.
    The primary is next month.

    Who is on it? Who can we back?


    Quote Originally Posted by eagleclaw View Post
    Unless they get a strategy to recruit good candidates to run and get those in favor of gun rights to get registered and vote Before gun bans are passed it's the same old stuff that will result in 4 more years of Shapiro.
    Pro gun voters are not the GOP's problem. They probably consider us "gun nuts" a pain in their asses.

    We have to get people out to vote.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    The people I’ve talked to about SASO have been positive. I’ve made packets to take to get signatures and educate people on what’s going on in PA with new proposed bills. Part of my pitch is that it’s not just about gun control laws but it’s about our rights being taken. If they can take that right, what will stop them from taking our other rights? Most of the people in my area are hunters and gun lovers. I’ll be going to some of the vfw’s in the area just to try to get more people to come out on June 8th.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    I have a question about SASO.

    Are we going to be "sanctuaried" from ALL 2A violations, including NFA, and all other state/federal infringements?

    Just curious as to the breadth of the supposed sanctuary.
    Life has a melody.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Pennsylvania 2A UPDATE with GOA PA Director Col. Val Finnell

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinHEMI View Post
    I have a question about SASO.

    Are we going to be "sanctuaried" from ALL 2A violations, including NFA, and all other state/federal infringements?

    Just curious as to the breadth of the supposed sanctuary.
    That depends on the exact language of the ordinance ultimately passed in any given jurisdiction. GOA is offering only a template which may be modified as one sees fit. (The template is here...)

    The template targets any "unlawful act" which is then defined in part:

    SECTION 4. PENALTIES
    A. An “Unlawful Act” shall consist of any federal or state
    act, law, order, rule, or regulation, which restricts an
    individual’s constitutional right to keep and bear arms,
    including any federal or state act, law, order, rule, or
    regulation which bans or effectively bans, registers or
    effectively registers, or limits the lawful use of
    firearms, firearm accessories or ammunition (other than a
    fully automatic firearm which is made unlawful by federal
    law). Any such “Unlawful Act” is invalid in (LOCALITY)
    and shall not be recognized by _________ (LOCALITY), is
    specifically rejected by the voters of (LOCALITY), and
    shall be considered null, void and of no effect in
    _________ (LOCALITY), (STATE), and this includes, but shall
    not be limited to the following:
    1. Any tax, levy, fee, or stamp imposed on firearms,
    firearm accessories, or ammunition not common to all
    other goods and services on the purchase or ownership
    of those items by citizens;
    2. Any registration or tracking of firearms, firearm
    accessories, or ammunition;
    3. Any registration or tracking of the owners of
    firearms, firearm accessories, or ammunition;
    4. Any act forbidding the possession, ownership, or use
    or transfer of any type of firearm, firearm accessory,
    or ammunition by citizens of the legal age of eighteen
    and over, other than pursuant to federal law
    background check requirements for transfers or
    purchases through FFL dealers;
    5. Any act ordering the confiscation of firearms, firearm
    accessories, or ammunition from citizens;
    6. Any prohibition, regulation, and/or use restriction
    related to ownership or the constitutionally
    guaranteed lawful use or carry of non-fully automatic
    firearms; and
    7. Any prohibition, regulation, and/or use restriction
    limiting hand grips, stocks, flash suppressors,
    bayonet mounts, magazine capacity, clip capacity,
    internal capacity, bump stocks, suppressors, or types
    of ammunition available for sale, possession or use by
    citizens.

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