Lower Milling

[esh21167]

Didn't want to derail the milling party thread, but curious about a hypothetical situation.

Suppose someone has the equipment to finish 80% AR lowers. Could they actually charge for training by showing another how to do it by providing a demonstration, how to operate the equipment. Then allow a person to use the equipment for free. No charge for the machine time, and the lower owner does all the work. Fee would be just for teaching how to run the equipment.

[Berncly]

If I pay a stripper $500 for $200 dance, and then she screws me in my car 20 minutes later without payment, is it considered prostitution?
Asking for a friend...

My point is that if the government wanted to, they could probably make the case.
I'm not a lawyer, just my opinion.

Whatever we are going to do here, we want to be well within the law.
Otherwise we are fools for such a public display inviting potential problems.

[esh21167]

Fair response. Not looking to cause any issues. Probably why there aren't 'AR Machining Schools' popping up all over.

'Smaller' illegalities surely occur frequently. 'Hey friend, drill a hole in this SBR so I can mount the stock and I'll give you a case of beer.' A non licensed person has received a firearm, performed gunsmithing for someone else, then returned the gun to them, and received 'payment.'

Or the friend walks the gun owner through the steps using his tools. Not splitting hairs or 'degrees' of possible violations. Principle seems the same. Just an observation.

I'm sure countless people have bartered for such things.

[WCMG]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...thing/download

cliff notes from https://gunfightertactical.com/atf-s...-of-80-lowers/

An FFL or unlicensed machine shop may also desire to make available its machinery (e.g., a computer numeric control or “CNC” machine), tools, or equipment to individuals who bring in raw materials, blanks, unfinished frames or receivers and/or other firearm parts for the purpose of creating operable firearms. Under the instruction or supervision of the FFL or unlicensed machine shop, the customers would initiate and/or manipulate the machinery, tools, or equipment to complete the frame or receiver, or entire weapon. The FFL or unlicensed machine shop would typically charge a fee for such activity, or receive some other form of compensation or benefit. This activity may occur either at a fixed premises, such as a machine shop, or a temporary location, such as a gun show or event.

A business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements under the GCA simply by allowing individuals to initiate or manipulate a CNC machine, or to use machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion or control to perform manufacturing processes on blanks, unfinished frames or receivers, or incomplete weapons. In these cases, the business controls access to, and use of, its machinery, tools, and equipment. Following manufacture, the business “distributes” a firearm when it returns or otherwise disposes a finished frame or receiver, or complete weapon to its customer. Such individuals or entities are, therefore, “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms even though unlicensed individuals may have assisted them in the manufacturing process.

Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records.

[esh21167]

^ So the first paragraph above states an unlicensed entity 'may desire', but the second clarifies that the action of doing so is illegal, or requires a manufacturing license.

The link to the Gunfighter Tactical site states:

It is also illegal for a private individual to complete an 80% in their friend or neighbor’s garage using using the friend’s equipment. Essentially this means the only way to complete an 80% lower is to buy your own equipment (jig, drill press, drill bits, or CNC machine, etc.) and finish it in your own home.


If that is true, all those guys in the milling party thread are dancing with the devil.

[Walleye Hunter]

^ So the first paragraph above states an unlicensed entity 'may desire', but the second clarifies that the action of doing so is illegal, or requires a manufacturing license.

The link to the Gunfighter Tactical site states:

It is also illegal for a private individual to complete an 80% in their friend or neighbor’s garage using using the friend’s equipment. Essentially this means the only way to complete an 80% lower is to buy your own equipment (jig, drill press, drill bits, or CNC machine, etc.) and finish it in your own home.


If that is true, all those guys in the milling party thread are dancing with the devil.

Seesh, you're quite the party pooper!

[PAMedic=F|A=]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...thing/download

cliff notes from https://gunfightertactical.com/atf-s...-of-80-lowers/

An FFL or unlicensed machine shop may also desire to make available its machinery (e.g., a computer numeric control or “CNC” machine), tools, or equipment to individuals who bring in raw materials, blanks, unfinished frames or receivers and/or other firearm parts for the purpose of creating operable firearms. Under the instruction or supervision of the FFL or unlicensed machine shop, the customers would initiate and/or manipulate the machinery, tools, or equipment to complete the frame or receiver, or entire weapon. The FFL or unlicensed machine shop would typically charge a fee for such activity, or receive some other form of compensation or benefit. This activity may occur either at a fixed premises, such as a machine shop, or a temporary location, such as a gun show or event.

A business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements under the GCA simply by allowing individuals to initiate or manipulate a CNC machine, or to use machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion or control to perform manufacturing processes on blanks, unfinished frames or receivers, or incomplete weapons. In these cases, the business controls access to, and use of, its machinery, tools, and equipment. Following manufacture, the business “distributes” a firearm when it returns or otherwise disposes a finished frame or receiver, or complete weapon to its customer. Such individuals or entities are, therefore, “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms even though unlicensed individuals may have assisted them in the manufacturing process.

Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records.

Which doesn’t even touch on the fact that multiple people have been illegally making guns and not getting prosecuted once they lawyer up, and the lawyer points out the atf rule making violates the law, and that under federal law anything with an upper and lower receiver isn’t legally regulated at all. All of a sudden the atf seems to find that the case isn’t that important, and they have other places to be.

[icp4life162005]

Which doesn’t even touch on the fact that multiple people have been illegally making guns and not getting prosecuted once they lawyer up, and the lawyer points out the atf rule making violates the law, and that under federal law anything with an upper and lower receiver isn’t legally regulated at all. All of a sudden the atf seems to find that the case isn’t that important, and they have other places to be.

This.

In fact, pretty sure federal judges mentioned that if this keeps getting pushed it's going to upend the UFA/NFA.

[gghbi]

If I pay a stripper $500 for $200 dance, and then she screws me in my car 20 minutes later without payment, is it considered prostitution?
Asking for a friend...

My point is that if the government wanted to, they could probably make the case.
I'm not a lawyer, just my opinion.

Whatever we are going to do here, we want to be well within the law.
Otherwise we are fools for such a public display inviting potential problems.

I thought that was giving her a tip...

[Berncly]

I thought that was giving her a tip...

I always have trouble getting my loose change into the stripper's g-string.