Lower Milling

[esh21167]

There's nothing illegal about me meeting you somewhere and selling you a mill, and jig. Then you sell it and they sell it and they sell it and somehow I end up buying it back.....

Along those lines then. I sell you a milling machine and charge you rent to keep it in a building I own since you don't have a location for it. You machine 'stuff.' Since we have a month to month rental agreement, you cancel after a month or two. Then I buy the machine back from you and we part ways.

That should be no different than you owning a building that a firearm manufacturer rents from you. They machine 'stuff.' Just because you own the building does not make you a manufacturer, right? They own the equipment and do all the work.

How would all that be viewed? Who will decide? A judge.

Yinz guys are going to ruin it for everybody

That's funny right there.

Has anyone else read that six page decision? I'd like to discuss what's in it and see what we come up with. One of the things that I think I saw was the issue that the finished product changes hands, or ownership gets 'transferred' without being registered. Am I alone on seeing this?

I agree that's where you get into interpretation. Who decides if something has change hands? A judge.

Not trying to start a war, but current law is current law. If some good ole boys do some 'illegal' stuff and nobody knows, there are no 'victims', and/or nobody seems to care, que será, será. If those boys publish about it on an Internet forum, it might get some attention. Who will decide the outcome? A judge.

I'd be curious what Phil Kline and Josh Prince think.

[Walleye Hunter]

Yes, the burden of proof lies on the charging party.

[abner13]

Yes, the burden of proof lies on the charging party.

Not according to Chuck , Nancy , Shifty Schiff , and the others.

[Berncly]

Along those lines then. I sell you a milling machine and charge you rent to keep it in a building I own since you don't have a location for it. You machine 'stuff.' Since we have a month to month rental agreement, you cancel after a month or two. Then I buy the machine back from you and we part ways.

That should be no different than you owning a building that a firearm manufacturer rents from you. They machine 'stuff.' Just because you own the building does not make you a manufacturer, right? They own the equipment and do all the work.

How would all that be viewed? Who will decide? A judge.





I agree that's where you get into interpretation. Who decides if something has change hands? A judge.

Not trying to start a war, but current law is current law. If some good ole boys do some 'illegal' stuff and nobody knows, there are no 'victims', and/or nobody seems to care, que será, será. If those boys publish about it on an Internet forum, it might get some attention. Who will decide the outcome? A judge.

I'd be curious what Phil Kline and Josh Prince think.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.
We already know the law and have consulted with 2A lawyers so that we stay well within the law.

No one in this forum is advocating skirting the law, but your constant theme is that we are.
We aren't.

A casual reading of your posts here and elsewhere would indicate that our milling plans involve payment.
They don't.

A casual reading of your posts would indicate that our plans involve people in the business of firearm manufacture.
They don't.

A casual reading of your posts would indicate that our plans involve programmed or unprogrammed CNC machines.
They don't.

You're constantly blurring the lines and I have been wondering why since your very first posts in both threads.
I don't appreciate your casual insinuation of illegality or your prodding threads into deliberately suggestive themes.

[esh21167]

My replies are in red below.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.
We already know the law and have consulted with 2A lawyers so that we stay well within the law.

I don't know who 'we' are, but if that's the case, that's good.

No one in this forum is advocating skirting the law, but your constant theme is that we are.
We aren't.

A casual reading of your posts here and elsewhere would indicate that our milling plans involve payment.
They don't.

A casual reading of your posts would indicate that our plans involve people in the business of firearm manufacture.
They don't.

A casual reading of your posts would indicate that our plans involve programmed or unprogrammed CNC machines.
They don't.

Perhaps 'casual' is a good word choice. I never mentioned anyone here was using a CNC machine, nor did I mean to imply any of those other activities. I was merely speaking of possible, general hypothetical situations.

You're constantly blurring the lines and I have been wondering why since your very first posts in both threads.
I don't appreciate your casual insinuation of illegality or your prodding threads into deliberately suggestive themes.

This was never my intention either. Just inquiring about how something might be perceived.

If I have offended anyone, I apologize for that.

By Berncly's post, is it true we can lay the issue to rest with this?

Using someone else's equipment is OK, so long as it's not CNC.
The owner of the lower does all the work
There is no financial transactions between the lower owner and the machine owner. (And the machine owner is not a 'manufacturer', gunsmith, or FFL holder.

[Walleye Hunter]

My replies are in red below.



If I have offended anyone, I apologize for that.

By Berncly's post, is it true we can lay the issue to rest with this?

Using someone else's equipment is OK, so long as it's not CNC.
The owner of the lower does all the work
There is no financial transactions between the lower owner and the machine owner. (And the machine owner is not a 'manufacturer', gunsmith, or FFL holder.

...for now and until yet another ‘interpretation’ gets handed down by the powers that be.

[HKusp 45]

you could sell your 80% arms or 5d tactical jig to someone price being up to the seller ... they can take it home and decide they don't like it and if you were feeling gracious you could buy it back. Videos on youtube or the like generally outline in great detail how to use one of these jigs. IANAL and this is not legal advice your always taking a risk by trying to "interpret" the statements of the ATF to fit your narrative.

Me I buy the equipment and there is a list here I posted giving you options for more cost effective jigs.