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Thread: What the Glock

  1. #11
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    Not to poo poo on your parade but check out 9x25 Dillon. 10mm necked down to 9mm. For 45 and 10mm frames.

    125 grain 9mm bullet at 1700fps from a handgun. Its the bad ass brother to what 357 Sig should have been.

    Its sexy in a Roni.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9725mm_Dillon

    I love the conversion in my Glock. Brass is made from 10mm cases.

    But ya you small frame guys may have to adjust.
    www.Steelvalleycasting.com is your new home for coated bullets and custom ammo.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    Damn you to hell. Now I'm off checking that out! lol...……………….

    Quote Originally Posted by DucatiRon View Post
    Not to poo poo on your parade but check out 9x25 Dillon. 10mm necked down to 9mm. For 45 and 10mm frames.

    125 grain 9mm bullet at 1700fps from a handgun. Its the bad ass brother to what 357 Sig should have been.

    Its sexy in a Roni.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9725mm_Dillon

    I love the conversion in my Glock. Brass is made from 10mm cases.

    But ya you small frame guys may have to adjust.
    "Tastefully Pimptastic"

  3. #13
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    Friend of mine just said the 9x25 Dillon is an old IPSC round? Looks impressive …………

    "Tastefully Pimptastic"

  4. #14
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    Quote Originally Posted by cruzans View Post
    22 tcm9R barrel came in last week, and got the new 9R ammo today, so one of my Glock 17's is now fitted and the stock Glock 17 mag loaded with 22 tcm9R and ready to go! Can't wait to take her out.....

    [url=https://postimages.org/]

    [url=https://postimages.org/]
    Dude...it is time for a new mag?

  5. #15
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    ^^^^ Just noticed that. I probably have a dozen or more 17 mags and that's the one I picked. Came with the PD trade gun and never swapped it out...…….
    "Tastefully Pimptastic"

  6. #16
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    Quote Originally Posted by cruzans View Post
    Friend of mine just said the 9x25 Dillon is an old IPSC round? Looks impressive …………

    Yep. Was only way to make power factor way back when with 9mm projectile. Then they lowered power factor for major and it went bye bye. Still it is crazy for pistol or carbine. Plus you get to use all the fancy 9mm projectiles. I have some 90gr Underwood Ammo rated at 2,000 fps.


    I used a Timeberwolf conversion barrel for my GLOCK. It was like $99 shipped to my door.
    www.Steelvalleycasting.com is your new home for coated bullets and custom ammo.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    Quote Originally Posted by DucatiRon View Post
    Not to poo poo on your parade but check out 9x25 Dillon. 10mm necked down to 9mm. For 45 and 10mm frames.

    125 grain 9mm bullet at 1700fps from a handgun. Its the bad ass brother to what 357 Sig should have been.
    .357 Sig and 9x25 Dillon served different purposes. .357 Sig was designed for LE use. It was to replicate .357 Magnum out of a 9mm/.40S&W sized gun, and it worked as planned, just wasn't as heavily adopted as expected. 9x25 Dillon was meant for competition to squeeze every drop of advantage out of running 9mm major. It also served its purpose, but when the rules changed, it stopped being popular.

    I like both cartridges. I have an M&P40 that I swapped over to .357 Sig, and I've shot a Glock 20 in 9x25 Dillon. But I don't like shooting them out of lighter guns like my M&P or the Glock. I was thinking the other day about selling my M&P40 to help fund the purchase of a Sig P229 Elite in .40S&W or .357 Sig. I had been toying with getting a 9x25 Dillon barrel for my 10mm Tanfoglio Stock III, but it's too big/heavy to carry, and 9x25 is WAY too loud for HD; so it would just end up being a range toy. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
    Oh therapy, can you please fill the void? Am I retarded or am I just overjoyed?

  8. #18
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    I bought a .22TCM9R kit for the Glock 17 a few months back, thinking it would be easy to reload. I have yet to shoot this caliber, as I've been busy at work and have been shooting other guns, but I am really eager to give it a try. I am, however, extremely disappointed in the lack of projectiles to reload the .22TCM9R. I bought 500rds thinking I could reload and keep shooting, eventually cutting up my older 5.56 cases when I get around to it... But what's the point if you don't have any projectiles to reload with?

    I had the same problem with .357Sig when it first came on the market. I bought a conversion barrel and some ammo, shot it and reloaded the empties. I was disappointed then for the same reasons- lack of suitable projectiles. I gave up on the caliber for a DECADE before I found out that there was an abundance of projectiles available that would work; it seems the modern day hollow points have the right amount of vertical sides before they taper, and hardly have any oglive.

    Anyway, in my frustration, I dove into the interwebz and found some guys experimenting with modifying the shoulder tapers of the .22TCM. This allows the use of regular .224 diameter bullets to be loaded AND still keep the OAL of the cartridge to 9R lengths. Interesting, but I never messed with changing the shoulder angle before; making an improved version of a caliber like the Improved Ackleys. Here's some excerpts from one of the many (I'm sorry, I don't have the original site or author to give thanks and merit to):

    The .22TCM9R was Armscor's afterthought on how to expand the appeal of the .22TCM. The original TCM was sized to function through 1911 size pistols, and .45ACP/.38Super length actions.
    So they came up with the "9R" specification using a special bullet with short, round, hollow-point nose and long shank that could be seated deep enough in the case to allow the cartridge to fit and function through 9mm length actions such as Glock and RIA MAPP.
    22TCM vs 22TCM9R.jpg
    Armscor was late in bringing the special 39gr bullet to market for the 9R spec version which made loading for it impossible for many, and more complicated for those dedicated enough to push on.
    This prompted the development of the 5.56x24 - the TCM case reformed to move the neck back by increasing the shoulder angle, and reducing case length from 1.025" to 0.935". Be keeping the shoulder transition at the same datum line, the 5.56x24 fits into any .22TCM/9R chamber and fires safely. An advantage of the sharper shoulder is it overcame the issue of cases becoming stuck as the action of pushing out the shoulder during firing assisted in dislodging the case from the chamber. (Armscor later solved that by introducing nickel plated cases which are extremely slippery)
    22TCM_22TCM9R_556x24.jpg
    The photo above shows the original .22TCM next to the .22TCM9R, and derivative 5.56x24. Another advantage to the 5.56x24 is the ability to accept most of the short .224" bullets designed for the .22 Hornet, and .218 Bee, whereas the .22TCM9R is restricted to the very blunt-nose 39gr JHP. The B.C. of the Speer 40gr Spire point shown in the middle is half-again better than that of Armscor's 40gr JHP which translated to a bit more retained velocity. Also the Speer bullet has a thicker, more sharply tapered jacket which means better steel/aluminum plate penetration as well as Kevlar.
    556x24 and 22TCM9R in ETS mags.jpg
    The top ETS mag shows the 5.56x24 loaded with Speer 40gr SP. The bottom is loaded with .22TCM9R 39gr JHP.
    It's actually not hard once the process if sorted out.
    You start with a Lee sizing die in .223 Remington Improved, remove the lock ring and decapping pin, then slice the die body off about 1/4" below the shoulder (inside). Then slightly radius and polish the severed section.
    Then cut the decapping pin all the way down to just an expander ball and position normally which means it will be visible protruding from the bottom of the sizer die, which we will now call the shoulder die. I also polished the expander ball top portion where it must pull back out of the case to prevent the neck being yanked forward.

    Then, depending on your press, grind away enough of the upper portion of the shoulder die to allow it to screw down far enough in the press. Forget the lock ring, it's no longer relevant.
    From this point on it's pretty easy. The shoulder die is adjusted to reform the shoulder from 23 degrees to 40 degrees without pushing the shoulder edge back - it stays at 0.720", and is easily verified by dropping size cases into the barrel chamber. As long as the shoulder edge is correct the cases will head space properly.

    Since you must first, full-length size the case using a standard TCM die, the shoulder distance should already be set. It's worth ruining a few cases to experiment with pushing the shoulder back a little just to see it.
    Now you have the shoulder set, but the neck is way too long. I've used two methods to address this, but basically we're now just talking trimming to length which is 0.935".

    I started by shortening the body of a Lee trim die to allow the neck to protrude higher inside for the cutter to reach. Since I have the manual cutter, that was to say the least, a tedious, time-consuming process to remove several millimeters of brass, then chamfer the outside, as well as the inside.
    I then modified a 5.7x28 length stud for a Lee case trimmer - easy actually. The length is simply cut and honed to a measured 0.935" from the cutter face to the tip, then a portion of the body will need to be reduced in diameter to match the pin size since the 5.56x24 case is somewhat shorter than the 5.7x28 case and the cutter will bottom out on the inside of the case. With the cutter modified, and the lock-based chucked in a drill-driver, trimming becomes much less of a chore and a large number of cases can quickly be processed. Fired cases push the shoulder forward, but after resizing, many do not require trimming which is a good indicator that the brass is not stretching, only being folded this way to that. While it's not necessary to anneal before resizing, it can't hurt, and will probably prolong brass life, however, I've already gotten 3 reloads on modified cases without a failure.
    A member here sent me a supply of once-fired and I noted during sizing that a few came out with split necks. I suspect this is more a result of unrelieved stresses in the brass before the first firing, so annealing of all unknown brass is a good starting point.

    So those are the tools needed to make the 5.56x24.

    Once you have the tools, the process is no different than standard loading except for shoulder sizing after full-length resizing.

    On the press I'm using for this project - RCBS Turret, I ended up using Blue Lock-Tite to anchor the shoulder sizer to correct depth once I was happy, because the die tends to rotate during operation. If the die isn't adjusted quite far enough, cases can come out with a slight flair just above the neck-shoulder junction. This doesn't hurt anything, but it does reduce the amount of neck length providing full grip on the bullet. The Lee sizing dies have an annoying, yet useful feature that helps get the shoulder size perfect, and that's the vent hole they have conveniently located on the shoulder portion of the die. When forming the shoulder, you KNOW it's right when the case comes out with a tiny imprint from the air vent evident on the shoulder. This doesn't hurt the case at all, but it's a good visual that you've pushed the neck-to-shoulder junction down as far as possible.

    I don't bell case mouths for loading, but I do give them a good chamfer using a Lyman case prep tool which has a long-taper chamfer versus the Lee which has a short-taper chamfer, versus the RCBS which has a taper right in the middle.

    Oh...one more die to modify!

    The Lee seating die really sucks as it comes from the box. I don't know WHAT they were thinking when they sent this one out the door, but it looks a lot like a die nobody ever actually used to seat bullet with in the given case!

    The seating stem has a small ledge that allows it to protrude very little into the die body. For this reason many have reported having difficulty seating bullets in the .22 TCM"9R" because the seating stem does not extend far enough. In fairness to Lee, MOST bullets tend to have more stick out than 3.5mm, which is Armscor's work-around for making the .22 TCM cycle through a 9mm length action. Another problem is that it's impossible to keep the bullet sitting straight in the case mouth while feeding it into the die without excessive chamfer or belling of the case mouth.

    So, I pulled the seating stem, chucked it in a drill-driver, and used a Dremel to reduce it's diameter all the way up to about half-an-inch short of the top. (The actual distance doesn't matter, just as long as the tip slightly sticks out the bottom) This allows the stem to drop all the way down to just peeking out of the bottom of the seating die. This also means a bullet can be seat FLUSH with the case mouth if one so desired! Reassembled I inserted a 124gr. 9mm TC FMJ bullet into the adjusting cap as a spacer.

    The way it works: When seating the bullet, position it in the case mouth, then slowly raise it and insert the nose into the small cone-shaped opening on the bottom of the steam. This stabilizes the bullet and prevents it from tipping, and it glides right on up to be seated. With this modification I've had no more ruined cases, or sheared noses on bullets.

    The only thing I haven't yet done is add a Lee Factory crimp die to the mix. Of course it too will require modification by shortening the sliding crimping sleeve to match with the shorter 5.56x24 case. This means removal of 0.09" or 2.286mm for those who prefer to work with positive numbers. In my experience, Lee Crimp dies have been spotty in terms of consistency. I've had some that do a wonderful job of putting just the right crimp on, and others that the collet barely reached the case neck due to the sleeve being too long. I suspect, the 5.56x24, like the 5.7x28, will benefit a great deal from some amount of crimp. In the 5.7x28, adding a crimp can bump velocities 100-150 fps at the same powder charge, and even though the 5.56x24 requires a slower powder to reliably cycle, I'm thinking 0.002-0.003" of crimp might produce some interesting results. Does it need it...not really.

    After my last round of test loads I switched from Winchester primers to CCI because the Winchester primers have softer cups and flatten out with less pressure. These last loads show expected flattening of primers, but they still have generously rounded edges. Case head expansion has proven to be generally less than 0.001" with case body expansion about 0.200" above the crimp groove being around a thousandth as well. I don't think these loads are anywhere near "maximum" in terms of pressure, but available powder space will be the limiting factor. While the "book" on the .22 TCM is around 40K psi, in reality it can easily go 15K psi more and then some. Since the round has relatively weak breech thrust by nature, we find ourselves in the enviable position of being able to push the chamber pressure without worrying about early unlocking as is the case with rounds like the .45 Super and .460 Rowland. While the latest loads have good ejection, the cases still travel little farther from the gun than about 3 feet.

    What the 5.56x24 (and by inference the .22 TCM) really needs is more barrel length to take advantage of those slow-burning powders.

    Add just an inch and bullet speeds jump by over 100 fps. Add two inches and the results are even more impressive, and this is where the 5.56x24 can really beat the 5.7x28! The 5.7x28 works best with faster powders, so adding another two inches of barrel doesn't benefit it as much as the 5.56x24, and the 5.56x24 has a much stronger head/web with full support versus the 5.7x28 which has no case support for the last few millimeters that sticks out of the barrel, though 5.7 cases ARE very thick-walled at that location.
    And, lastly:

    Thank you for the question. The "shoulder die" is only for forming 5.56x24 from .22 TCM brass.
    When you try to form cut-off .223 brass in that die, in one step, the necks come out far too thick! I tried using it at first and discovered I had to removed the expander ball to keep from yanking the necks back up because the necks form "donuts" inside. I could get some good cases from using the shoulder die without the expander ball, but of course the necks were super undersized. When I tried to expand them, I had a LOT of splits.

    I did try annealing but even with annealing, trying to form brass from the diameter of a .223 case body to a .255" 5.56x24 (.22 TCM) neck was just too much.

    My solution was to form 5.56x24 cases from .223 brass in stages. I started with a form die in .30-06, then one in .25-06, then one in .244 Remington. Obviously I had to cut off the form/size dies since all that is needed is the neck and shoulder portion. So those dies are cut off just like the .223 Remington Improved die - about 1/4" below the shoulder (inside). Using an RCBS turret press I could mount all the dies at once. The process is basically done by "eye" and "trial and error" so to speak in terms of adjusting the the dies. The dies are screwed down far enough to form the neck but stop short of forming a shoulder less than .720" because that is the final length needed for proper headspace.

    With each die adjusted, the process goes pretty fast. Cut off a bunch of .223 brass around 1" long - remember the 5.56x24 case final length is only .935" so you want adjust your cut length so the formed case comes out just a hair too long. It won't hurt if it's longer, but that adds more time trimming to final length.

    Lube the cases then pass them into each die in turn using the turret feature which is basically, .30 cal, .25cal, .243 cal, then .223 cal. After passing into the fourth die - the .22 TCM die, the last die is the "shoulder die" which puts the final shoulder angle and neck location on the case. If your pre-cut .223 cases are just right, the final 5.56x24 case will come out just a bit over-length and take only a few turns of the trimmer.

    Now some points to consider. Using staged neck forming I get virtually 100% good cases with no rejects, no splits, or other problems. Annealing is NOT necessary using this process. My Lake City once-fired brass came out with necks between .015-.016" thick which is "spec" for the .22 TCM and therefore the 5.56x24.

    The other thing is that my progressive case forming was focused on making 5.56x24 brass exclusively, not .22 TCM brass. For this reason I didn't worry about the different shoulder angles between the '06's and the .244, and the only "hard reference line" that matters is the .720" body-to-shoulder length of the 5.56x24! This is of course exactly the same as on a .22 TCM case.

    The best way to know you're cases are coming out right is to have a .22 TCM barrel on hand to "plunk test" them. Glock barrels are good because you can see if the base is level with the barrel tenon, headspace is good. If the case is below, headspace is excessive. If the case is above headspace is too little and the slide will not fully close.

    Because .223/5.56x45 brass is so thick down where the 5.56x24 shoulder is going to form, some cases will come out of the final forming step with somewhat "rounded" shoulder-to-body transitions on one side, with a more expected" sharper shoulder on the other side. As long as they pass the "plunk test" they're fine to load. 5.56x24 brass made from 5.56x45 brass is made to handle pressures near 70K psi, and from my personal experience it would be difficult to "blow one up" using any powders I've tried. The cases "volume out" meaning you can't put in any more powder. I have taken reformed rifle brass to 11.3 grains (2,067fps) of Enforcer and 10.7 grains (2,063fps) of Lil-gun behind 40 grain Armscor bullets and that's just about all the powder the case will hold and still get a bullet in. Those are hot loads and running about .3-.5 grains below that is still plenty impressive, but the take-away for you is knowing the cartridge and four different guns that I've shot it from handled it without a problem. I post all my load data on www.ammogide.com which is why I don't tend to post it elsewhere, but as fo today I have 26 published loads on ammoguide which should give anyone interested a good baseline, though of course it's up to each of use to start with a load we feel is safe and work up from there.

    My top 5.56x24 loads are equal to Armscor factory .22 TCM fired from 5" barrels which means they're running about 75fps on average over where they should from 4.5" barrels. For creating "stock" I keep my loads somewhat less than the top.
    If someone would sell the shoulder setback die this man described and made, I would buy it in a hot minute so I could start cranking out decently powered .22TCM!

    This is also the reason I am so excited by the new interest in 5.7x28 by Ruger and CMMG- that somebody may actually make a conversion barrel to .22TCm. Why? Because you can reload .22TCM (NOT .22TCM9R) easily with readily available components. 5.7x28 FN uses a proprietary design that doesn't share the rim dimensions with any other commonly found cartridge.
    Last edited by gun-bunny; January 26th, 2020 at 07:50 PM. Reason: correct some misspellings, I was in a hurry.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    20200129_224529.jpg

    Barrel swapped to
    22TCM9R, 30 rd mag in a micro roni. An absolute blast to shoot.
    Last edited by buxbandit; January 30th, 2020 at 12:02 AM. Reason: Clarification
    Gun control isn't about guns...it's about control

  10. #20
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    Default Re: What the Glock

    I have the Rock Island Mapp CZ 75 clone in this caliber ,because I have a ton of CZ mags this caliber is just a blast to shoot. What I want is a 10.5 inch Ar setup to run this caliber in.
    www.EastonFirearmsRefinishing.com Owner/Operator, NRA Pistol Instructor

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