Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    Quote Originally Posted by WCMG View Post
    Up until now, no, 80% lowers were treated no different then any other non-firearm item, such as a magazine or holster. Only record keeping of any kind was tracking how many we had in stock.
    And after this BS 80% law gets it's roots firmly planted then they'll come after those illegal deadly 30rd magazine's !

  2. #82
    Join Date
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    East side of the ANF, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    Quote Originally Posted by SigForLife View Post
    Beyond the criminal offenses? Have the licensee’s PA Firearms Sales License revoked
    PA Firearm Sales Licenses are issued by the county sheriff. I'm sure the PSP could strongarm the county sheriff to "play ball" and not issue, or revoke, a PAFSL, but I could see a few sheriffs I know tell the PSP to pound sand.

    Noah
    Currently seeking a sufficiently witty statement for 2020.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Berks County, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    Quote Originally Posted by WCMG View Post
    Up until now, no, 80% lowers were treated no different then any other non-firearm item, such as a magazine or holster. Only record keeping of any kind was tracking how many we had in stock.
    And I suppose that 'tracking' was only for your own business purposes. PSP and ATF could not have cared less. Have FFL's been formally informed to change that procedure via either PSP or AG's office?

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    West Alexander, Pennsylvania
    (Washington County)
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    Quote Originally Posted by esh21167 View Post
    And I suppose that 'tracking' was only for your own business purposes. PSP and ATF could not have cared less. Have FFL's been formally informed to change that procedure via either PSP or AG's office?
    Correct, just for in-house inventory. No, there has been no instructions as of 12-Jan-2020 on how to inventory these items and actually haven't received anything from PSP yet, only reason I know about the new forms is is I seen the notice on the PICS page before I logged to do an online PICS check. We don't have any 80% lowers in stock right now, but if I did, I still wouldn't be logging them into my A&D book because the ATF does NOT consider them firearms and that is what the A&D book is for.

    it's a truly a clusterfuck, the issue for FFL's is the ATF very clearly states that: "all FFL activities must be in compliance with Federal, State and local laws/ordinances." Remember, it's not about calling something a "Law", you can not even get an FFL if your local HOA forbids it, it's about staying 110% legal so the ATF doesn't pull your license. Now that we have an FEL, we are even more concerned about staying 110% on being compliant because of capital expenses we have put into this business.
    Washington County Machine Guns & Tactical Range -- CMP Affliated Club -- 07/02 FFL/SOT and Type 20 FEL
    Specializing in Bachelor parties with 50+ machine guns including M2HB, M249 SAW, M1919, RPD, M60
    Now offering High-Explosive Familiarization Classes (Open to the Public)

  5. #85
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    Feb 2013
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    West Alexander, Pennsylvania
    (Washington County)
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    https://www.firearmspolicy.org/evanchick

    Summary: Petition and motion for injunction against Pennsylvania State Police Commissioner Robert Evanchick regarding Attorney General Josh Shapiro Legal Opinion and PSP enforcement rule over "partially-manufactured (often referred to as 80%) frames and receivers and kits"
    Washington County Machine Guns & Tactical Range -- CMP Affliated Club -- 07/02 FFL/SOT and Type 20 FEL
    Specializing in Bachelor parties with 50+ machine guns including M2HB, M249 SAW, M1919, RPD, M60
    Now offering High-Explosive Familiarization Classes (Open to the Public)

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Belly of the BEAST, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    Sorry i dont own any 80% firearms.


    Just a few novelty paperweights.


    AR15-Cheese-Grater-Lower-Receiver-1.jpgAR15-Cheese-Grater-Lower-Receiver-2.jpg

    Dont worry, Officer Chungus. These are just pictures from google.
    No need to organize a circle jerk to come kill my dog.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    State College, Pennsylvania
    (Centre County)
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    Ron, what real costs does the dealer incur on the actual check? I see the form header doesn't say "transfer", but other language on the form suggests the possibility of "private" transfers being included. What if some nice compliant folks wanted to play along, and came in with pre-prepared forms for 100 or 500 "partially manufactured receivers" that they wished to transfer from one party to the other? The dealer would not have any inventory involved, just the "required" paperwork.

    What I'm getting at is, what are the ways that we can legally flip this and use it to further make their efforts even more useless than they are as originally conceived?
    The cost to a dealer would be the time involved filling out the form and doing the call in. AFAIK, nothing has been said about who can fill in the forms or if the form is going to be restricted to only FFLs (the SP4-113 is serialized and the PSP knows who got what serial numbers). Remember, it is one form to an item, just like the ROS. 100 to be transferred, 100 forms to be filled out. One call in if all 100 were going to the same person but then the FFL has to store the forms and there has been no directions about how to do any of this. It would not go into the FFL A&D book as the ATF doesn't consider them firearms, no 4473 (not a firearm), how/where is a FFL store/track/dispose, how long is a FFL suppose to store them - none of this has been addressed (yet)
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    State College, Pennsylvania
    (Centre County)
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    Quote Originally Posted by Noah_Zark View Post
    PA Firearm Sales Licenses are issued by the county sheriff. I'm sure the PSP could strongarm the county sheriff to "play ball" and not issue, or revoke, a PAFSL, but I could see a few sheriffs I know tell the PSP to pound sand.

    Noah
    What the PSP could do is to tell a FFL is if they don't comply they (PSP) will deny them the use of the PICS, thus basically shutting down any firearms sales/transfers. Remember they did this back in 2009 to try to force FFLs to fill out the ROS on stripped lowers.
    Last edited by Xringshooter; January 12th, 2020 at 04:45 PM.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  9. #89
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    Jan 2007
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    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    When it's time for them to not come for your guns, I suspect that won't include the Pennsylvania State Police, who are clearly going to be coming for your guns.

  10. #90
    Join Date
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    State College, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: 80% Lower Update on PICS

    Quote Originally Posted by Xringshooter View Post
    For all the places that sell them online, and as cheaply as they sell them, IMO, it's not worth a FFL's time/money to buy to resale, their (FFL) selling cost, plus the sales tax, would be more than most buyers would want to pay.
    I really didn't say everything I should have.

    For small dealers like me, it probably isn't worth the time and money, we don't get as big of discounts when only buying say a dozen at a time. For a large gun shop, who can buy in large quantities and big discounts, even with sales tax it probably is a money maker. But now, those people who want to build their own so that the .gov doesn't know what they own, it may put a dent in their purchases as they will order online from a place that will sell to a PA resident and ship direct, thus bypassing the paperwork trail.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

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