Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Mar 2008
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    (Montgomery County)
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    Angry PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    I had the dubious honor of receiving an "undetermined" result from PICS over the weekend during what was anticipated to be a routine transaction at Tanners.

    I've been convicted of running a red light in 2009 but that's the lone spot on my "criminal history". After running a background check to see if there are any spurious data points against my identify (none found), I have submitted the challenge form.

    Does anyone have experience with this kind of thing lately? I had positive approvals from PICS several times this year and as recently as August 2019. I can't for the life of me understand why anything would have changed aside for the mechanism (mobile device) not working as well as the instant check via telephone check that was done last time I bought anything. Is there any chance that the result could change from undetermined to "approved"? Is there any truth to the assertion that if they can't deny you after 5 days, you are by default approved?

    Anyone's input on what to expect and when would be very much appreciated. I did mail Phil Kline, Esq. for his suggestions which were sound i.e. run a background check to be sure about my criminal record before submitting challenge form so as to not compromise myself by attesting to a false statement. However I am 100% sure of my history and there's no reason whatsoever I should have been denied.

    Ray at Tanners was great in dealing with it btw, and is kindly holding my 365 SAS for me while I chomp at the bit to get this all sorted.

  2. #2
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    Oct 2008
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    USN Retired, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
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    Default Re: PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    I did mail Phil Kline, Esq. for his suggestions which were sound
    That's it. What ever he said do that...nothing to add.
    Last edited by Rosco the Iroc; October 21st, 2019 at 04:10 PM.
    Owner Trigger Time LLc 01 FFL/NFA Saylorsburg, PA. Sales/Service/Transfers/Training
    NRA CRSO/Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun inst. BSA Rifle/Shotgun Merit badge counselor. US Navy Marksmanship Team Staff

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    State College, Pennsylvania
    (Centre County)
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    Default Re: PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    You did what you needed to do, submitted the challenge form. From that, the PSP has to tell you what is going on but they do have 30 days to do that. Being undetermined just means that the system can't figure you out, it could be for almost any reason but I would suspect that someone out there who has your exact name has done something and the folks at PICS can't completely determine if it is you or someone else. This does happen from time to time. Now, this does not mean you can't buy a firearm, just means that someone (the PSP) has to do some more thorough investigation. You could, in theory, go out and buy another gun and go through the PICS with flying colors. However, to be safe, I would wait to see what the PSP comes up with in case it is negative and you have to get it straightened out.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    DeepInTheWoods, Pennsylvania
    (Warren County)
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    Default Re: PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    Did you supply your social security number?
    American by BIRTH, Infidel by CHOICE

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    I did not supply my social on the transfer form (and have never supplied it for any of the transactions I've made over the course of the last 15 or so years). I'm not saying that it'd have changed the outcome, but it's worth noting that I did supply my social on the challenge form. I'll keep everyone apprised here in case of curiosity. I am considering recourse against the state as this seems like undue burden - I'm having to prove my innocence when they aren't able to definitively prove a reason not to issue. Thanks for the replies/thoughts thus far. I'll definitely be writing my local state prostitute, err, I mean, politician.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Honesdale, Pennsylvania
    (Wayne County)
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    Default Re: PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    Does a red light/stop sign conviction cause a denial under PICS or prohibit you from firearm ownership?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
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    Douglassville, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    I wouldn't get too worked up just yet. I was denied my LTCF, which ultimately turned out to be for no reason and during the process the Sheriff related a story to me how he was once temporarily denied a shotgun purchase. It may just be that you hit it when people were busy and yours needed looked at due to your ticket and they didn't have anyone available to do it. I am curious about how it goes.
    Gender confusion is a mental illness

  8. #8
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    North Penn area, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    Quote Originally Posted by Will3212 View Post
    Does a red light/stop sign conviction cause a denial under PICS or prohibit you from firearm ownership?
    Perhaps in Philly , but not in free Pennsylvania.
    I don't speak English , I talk American!

  9. #9
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    Apr 2009
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    FEMA Region III - State College, Pennsylvania
    (Centre County)
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    Default Re: PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    Quote Originally Posted by Will3212 View Post
    Does a red light/stop sign conviction cause a denial under PICS or prohibit you from firearm ownership?
    Surely that is only a summary offense? So, no, it does/should not.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    bloomsburg, Pennsylvania
    (Columbia County)
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    Default Re: PICS Result - Undetermined & Challenge Forms

    Running red light is a traffic violation. It will make your driving record but not your criminal record. The way crimes are placed on a criminal record is if and when the defendant is fingerprinted by the arresting police department. If you were not fingerprinted you probably have no criminal record.
    What could be the problem is a person with a similar name and DOB has disqualifying mental health or has a Protection from abuse lodged against them and the PSP computer was unable to determine who is who. Hopefully they can sort it out.

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