Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    Being relatively new to the 01 side of things (less than a year) combined with the ever changing rules and laws not only within the ATF but also through interstate transactions, i have a question. During very recent inspections, several of my 01 dealer friends have been told by agents that they cannot sell in out of state venues, any firearm that was not transferred prior to the show date to an 01 or equivalent, seller within the "out of state" area. meaning, that since my business is based in PA, i cannot sell any firearm at a Maryland show unless it is transferred to a maryland based dealer and they then do the sale. It has also been explained by the agents, that i cannot sell any firearms at an out of state venue, and that i could only take orders for them by taking the cash from the buyer, and then shipping said firearm (when i return home from the show) to the dealer they choose within their own state. If i wish to sell a firearm at the show, i would have to transfer my inventory to a dealer prior to the show and when the show was over, i had to then take possession of my remaining inventory and log it back in to my books when i get home. Ive checked into this with several different FFL holders to include some from other states and some say that is correct, while others have no clue what im even talking about (but they have not been inspected in a very long time). I'm wondering what dealers are doing in order to do shows outside of PA. there are several great shows that i could do and would do well, but the interstate trade rules are going to put a huge damper on those plans.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    From what I've always understood was:

    1. A 01 could purchase in any state.
    2. A 01 could only sell in his/her state of residence/establishment that his FFL is addressed to at his brick & mortar or at a gun show in his/her state.


    Examples:
    1. A PA 01 could go to MD and buy a firearm from another 01 or non-licensee.

    2. That PA 01 then could only a firearm at his store or at a gun show within PA.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    totally understand that, BUT i see PA dealers selling at gun shows out of state all of the time. im wondering how they do it.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Marines55 View Post
    totally understand that, BUT i see PA dealers selling at gun shows out of state all of the time. im wondering how they do it.
    They may have other 01 licenses for those states? Like say, Walmart.. A license per store. Or, they may also be in violation without knowing it.

    You also have to factor in state level legalities. Like in PA, you must have a state license issued by the sheriff. ....MD may have similar things??
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J.

    Don't end up in my signature!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    That would be a negative ghostrider but are they handing out or just getting sales- then going back and mailing to local FFL they have an arrangement with?

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-...arms-gun-shows
    May licensees sell firearms at gun shows?
    Generally, a licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer may sell firearms temporarily at a qualifying gun show or event located within his or her State of licensure. Licensees may, however, sell curio or relic firearms to another licensee at any location.

    [18 U.S.C. 923(j), 27 CFR 478.100]
    Good place to ask - https://www.fflsonly.com
    Last edited by Rosco the Iroc; October 17th, 2019 at 10:28 AM.
    TriggerTime LLc 01/02 FFL CRSO/Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun inst. BSA Rifle/Shotgun MB Counselor

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    in these cases, the dealers are selling firearms at out of state shows by using an "in state" dealer that is set up there. that's kind of what im curious about. i am being told that i cannot setup at a MD show with my inventory still in my books, and then use a MD dealer at the show to transfer on the spot. is this correct? wouldn't i need to transfer all of my inventory to a MD dealer before the show and then receive all unsold inventory after those back into my books? seems like a terrible amount of paperwork and perhaps confusion in your bound book just to sell a couple guns. perhaps you are correct in that they may be in violation without even knowing it. would you be able to sell on site to FFL holders such as other 01s and 03s?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Marines55 View Post
    in these cases, the dealers are selling firearms at out of state shows by using an "in state" dealer that is set up there. that's kind of what im curious about. i am being told that i cannot setup at a MD show with my inventory still in my books, and then use a MD dealer at the show to transfer on the spot. is this correct? wouldn't i need to transfer all of my inventory to a MD dealer before the show and then receive all unsold inventory after those back into my books? seems like a terrible amount of paperwork and perhaps confusion in your bound book just to sell a couple guns. perhaps you are correct in that they may be in violation without even knowing it. would you be able to sell on site to FFL holders such as other 01s and 03s?
    yea fuck that noise
    TriggerTime LLc 01/02 FFL CRSO/Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun inst. BSA Rifle/Shotgun MB Counselor

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Marines55 View Post
    in these cases, the dealers are selling firearms at out of state shows by using an "in state" dealer that is set up there. that's kind of what im curious about. i am being told that i cannot setup at a MD show with my inventory still in my books, and then use a MD dealer at the show to transfer on the spot. is this correct? wouldn't i need to transfer all of my inventory to a MD dealer before the show and then receive all unsold inventory after those back into my books? seems like a terrible amount of paperwork and perhaps confusion in your bound book just to sell a couple guns. perhaps you are correct in that they may be in violation without even knowing it. would you be able to sell on site to FFL holders such as other 01s and 03s?
    Many out of state dealers do the gun show sales illegally by selling and walking over and giving the firearm to an in state dealer to do the transfer. The ATF has addressed this in the past and that is not allowed. To do it legally, you can sell the firearm to a gun show patron but then you have to ship it to their local dealer. That said, since a FFL can buy from someone any where in the US, an in state gun dealer could buy a gun from the out of state gun dealers display at the show. The in state dealer then sells the gun to the gun show patron. The out of state gun dealer would need to get the in state dealers info to enter it into their A/D books (as well as the instate dealer getting the out of state dealers info.) If this is done with the patron standing by all the time the dealer to dealer transaction is going on it may seem suspicious but it would be legal.

    Yes you can sell to other FFL holders at a gun show, perfectly legal. However, if you sell to an 03 (C&R) it has to be a C&R firearm. A 03 buying a non C&R firearm has to go through the same paperwork as any non FFL buyer.
    Last edited by Xringshooter; October 17th, 2019 at 11:46 AM.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Xringshooter View Post
    Many out of state dealers do the gun show sales illegally by selling and walking over and giving the firearm to an in state dealer to do the transfer. The ATF has addressed this in the past and that is not allowed. To do it legally, you can sell the firearm to a gun show patron but then you have to ship it to their local dealer. That said, since a FFL can buy from someone any where in the US, an in state gun dealer could buy a gun from the out of state gun dealers display at the show. The in state dealer then sells the gun to the gun show patron. The out of state gun dealer would need to get the in state dealers info to enter it into their A/D books (as well as the instate dealer getting the out of state dealers info.) If this is done with the patron standing by all the time the dealer to dealer transaction is going on it may seem suspicious but it would be legal.

    Yes you can sell to other FFL holders at a gun show, perfectly legal. However, if you sell to an 03 (C&R) it has to be a C&R firearm. A 03 buying a non C&R firearm has to go through the same paperwork as any non FFL buyer.
    i was an 03 holder for many years, so i don't have a problem with the C&R stuff. I would think that doing out of state shows would only be beneficial if selling C&R stuff as the modern "click and ship" stuff just wouldn't be feasible since everyone else there would have the same thing so why pay the extra shipping and wait times. that being said, if a dealer to dealer sale would be conducted, how could one prove that in your books as during an inspection it may seem a bit odd that there would be several entries logging out firearms to an out of state 01 but all on the same day? not trying to nit pick on this issue, but if i do an out of state show...id like to be in the know and on the right side of things. at this point i must admit, that doing out of state shows doesn't really seem worth it.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 01 Dealer question about out of state shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Marines55 View Post
    i was an 03 holder for many years, so i don't have a problem with the C&R stuff. I would think that doing out of state shows would only be beneficial if selling C&R stuff as the modern "click and ship" stuff just wouldn't be feasible since everyone else there would have the same thing so why pay the extra shipping and wait times. that being said, if a dealer to dealer sale would be conducted, how could one prove that in your books as during an inspection it may seem a bit odd that there would be several entries logging out firearms to an out of state 01 but all on the same day? not trying to nit pick on this issue, but if i do an out of state show...id like to be in the know and on the right side of things. at this point i must admit, that doing out of state shows doesn't really seem worth it.
    You can log out your whole shop in one day- long as the A&D book has correct rec FFL info and they all went then. Also yea- not worth it.
    TriggerTime LLc 01/02 FFL CRSO/Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun inst. BSA Rifle/Shotgun MB Counselor

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