Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 31 to 39 of 39

Thread: Red Flag Abuse

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Mill Hall, Pennsylvania
    (Clinton County)
    Age
    33
    Posts
    1,576
    Rep Power
    21474848

    Default Re: Red Flag Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by GOYABEAN View Post
    Colorado's red flag law used to target officer involved in fatal shooting
    Susan Holmes has become a vocal critic of police policy since her son was shot and killed by a CSU officer in 2017.

    https://www.9news.com/mobile/article...c-db9ecf250ad3
    Susan Holmes arrested during livestream.
    Around 23:20
    Si vis pacem, para bellum
    μολ ν λαβέ
    What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms!

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Oakland Mills, Pennsylvania
    (Juniata County)
    Posts
    3,396
    Rep Power
    21474847

    Default Re: Red Flag Abuse

    FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) — A 23-year-old man who posted on Facebook, “I don’t know why I don’t go on a killing spree.” A West Palm Beach couple who shot up their home while high on cocaine. A 31-year-old Gulf Coast man who pointed a semiautomatic rifle at a motorcyclist.

    All four Florida residents had their guns taken away by judges under a “red flag” law the state passed three weeks after authorities say a mentally disturbed man killed 17 people in a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland two years ago Friday.

    The law, supported by legislators of both parties , has been applied more than 3,500 times since, with the pace accelerating during the last half of 2019. Even so, an Associated Press analysis of the law showed its use is inconsistent, with some counties and cities using it rarely and others not at all.


    Advocates of Florida’s red flag measure say before it existed, it was often difficult to remove firearms from those making threats or suffering severe mental breakdowns. Investigators did not act on reports that the Parkland shooter was threatening to carry out a school massacre. But even if they had, it is likely he would have been allowed to keep his guns because he had no felony convictions or involuntary, long-term mental commitments, they say.

    Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri, who leads a commission that investigated the massacre’s causes, says the shooter would have easily qualified for a red flag order. Gualtieri says while it is impossible to say that would have prevented the shooting, the gunman wouldn’t have been able to legally buy weapons or ammunition, making his preparation difficult.

    “We have needed this law for decades,” said Gualtieri, who started a unit in his department that handles only red flag cases.

    But the law also has vocal critics: those who say it violates the U.S. and state constitutions, including the right to bear arms, and others who argue that laws already on the books in Florida made it unnecessary. Still others say it discriminates against the poor: Because the hearing with a judge is not a criminal proceeding, low-income defendants aren’t provided with a free lawyer.

    Sixteen other states plus the District of Columbia have similar laws, 11 of which were enacted after the Feb. 14, 2018, shooting at Stoneman Douglas. President Donald Trump has at times supported a federal proposal, but has not strongly advocated it before Congress.


    To get an order in Florida, police agencies must file a request with a civil court, citing serious mental illness or threats a person has made. If the judge agrees, the person must surrender their firearms to police. Within two weeks, a hearing is held during which the judge decides whether to take the person’s weapons away for a year. Police agencies can apply for an extension if there is evidence a person remains a threat after a year. If not, the guns are returned.

    Orlando attorney Kendra Parris, who is trying to get a case before the state Supreme Court to overturn the law, says it doesn’t adequately define some terms, such as what constitutes serious mental health issues. And in any case, she says, other Florida statutes, such as misdemeanor breach of the peace, already allow police to take firearms from the truly dangerous before they act. That statute could easily have been invoked against the Stoneman Douglas shooter, she said.

    “Probably two dozen times this guy could have been charged for breach of the peace and had his firearms removed,” Parris said.

    The AP analysis shows that from March 2018, when the law was enacted, through December 2019, there was a wide disparity in its per capita usage in Florida’s 67 counties. Twenty issued at least one for every 5,500 residents during that time period, the statewide average. Three issued at least one for every 2,000 residents, including Gualtieri’s Pinellas County, which includes the Tampa Bay area, and has nearly 1 million people. Highlands County, near Lake Okeechobee, ranked No. 1, issuing one for every 850 residents.

    On the other extreme, 12 counties issued one for every 30,000 residents or less. Two neighboring Panhandle counties — Escambia and Santa Rosa — issued one for every 100,000 residents or more. Another nine small, rural counties issued none.

    Highlands County Sheriff Paul Blackman said he doesn’t know why his county is No. 1, but he noted that his deputies average two calls daily for mental health crises. The county has just over 100,000 residents and was the scene of a bank shooting last year that left five women dead.

    “If someone has made a threat to hurt themselves or others and is intent on using a firearm, we will try to get a risk protection order against them so we can take away those guns,” Blackman said. But even the law isn’t a guarantee: Two Highlands men who received orders still killed themselves, one with carbon monoxide and the other with an illegally obtained gun, he said.

    The sheriffs whose counties had no or few red flag orders during the reviewed period said in an AP questionnaire that they are not philosophically opposed to the law — they just haven’t needed it.

    Santa Rosa Sheriff Bob Johnson said it was a “fluke” that his county of 155,000 had only issued one order. Baker County Maj. Randy Crews explained that the lack of red flag orders from his county on the Georgia border west of Jacksonville has to do with the fact that his deputies know most of the 27,000 residents and can intercede quickly if someone is having a breakdown and making threats.

    Crews said most potential red flag cases are asked to surrender their guns to a relative, who is told to not return them until the person finishes mental health treatment. He said that approach works better than confrontation and has never backfired. He said the office would not hesitate to use the law, however, if someone didn’t cooperate.

    https://apnews.com/6560501986455adcb0ef57fdb370035a
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania
    (Lehigh County)
    Posts
    2,549
    Rep Power
    21474845

    Default Re: Red Flag Abuse

    With all the seizures in FL, it would be interesting to know how many got their guns returned ? And when?


    To get an order in Florida, police agencies must file a request with a civil court, citing serious mental illness or threats a person has made. If the judge agrees, the person must surrender their firearms to police. Within two weeks, a hearing is held during which the judge decides whether to take the person’s weapons away for a year. Police agencies can apply for an extension if there is evidence a person remains a threat after a year. If not, the guns are returned.
    Last edited by gghbi; February 14th, 2020 at 03:47 PM.
    Illegitimus non carborundum est

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Mobile RV Unit
    Posts
    1,040
    Rep Power
    21474843

    Default Re: Red Flag Abuse

    A new one from Florida and it is bad.

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...law-execution/

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Cranberry Twp, Pennsylvania
    (Butler County)
    Posts
    70
    Rep Power
    1228178

    Default Re: Red Flag Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness 1864 View Post
    A new one from Florida and it is bad.

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...law-execution/
    This is absolutely terrible, and is only the start I'm sure. I feel like more of these would hopefully make a push to a supreme court challenge to finally prove it violates due process....I can dream, right?

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Oakland Mills, Pennsylvania
    (Juniata County)
    Posts
    3,396
    Rep Power
    21474847

    Default Re: Red Flag Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness 1864 View Post
    A new one from Florida and it is bad.

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...law-execution/

    Government Officials Seize Veteran’s Guns in Mistaken Identification In Red Flag Law Execution



    Since the crazed Constitutional rights prohibitionists can’t get the federal government to pass any of their absurd gun control laws, they have turned to a state-by-state effort to methodically do away with the 2nd Amendment.

    One of the many laws they are pushing are so-called “red flag” laws where someone can petition the courts to have someone’s guns taken away without any due process by claiming the person is a danger to themselves or others. And the person being served with the court order doesn’t even know it until the cops are at the door. Then the person has to spend their own money and time to fight it, and has to prove their innocence before the court in order to get their rights back.

    The crazed prohibitionists try to claim there is due process and that these laws will save lives, while they mock anyone who dares to bring up dystopian scenarios where people are wrongly accused. Except what happens when the wrongly accused are actually served with these orders in real life?

    It happened to Jon Carpenter, in St. Cloud, Florida. He happened to have the same name as a homeless drug addict who was threatening an elderly woman with a gun. A red flag was ordered on the violent Jon Carpenter, and as officials were searching for an address and other information on him, they got him mixed up with peaceful Jon Carpenter.

    The good guy Carpenter is Marine veteran and sport fisherman, and he does own guns and has a valid CCW permit. That was until Sheriff’s deputies knocked on his door to take his CCW and guns. This Carpenter doesn’t even match the description of the transient Carpenter.

    Fox 13 Tampa reports:

    Jon is a veteran, sports fisherman, and law-abiding gun owner from St. Cloud, who just happens to have the same name as a drifter who threatened an elderly couple.

    “He’s 110 pounds. I’m 200. He has brown eyes. I have hazel. He has black hair. I have no hair,” Jon said, comparing himself to the other Jon Carpenter, who became the target of a risk protection order to remove any weapons he may possess.

    But the veteran, fisherman, 200-pound Jon Carpenter was sent a certified letter from the state, suspending his firearms license.

    “I was just dumbfounded. I didn’t know what to do. I called the state and they basically said, ‘There’s an injunction against you,’” Carpenter explained.

    He also received a notice that he had been reported to DCF for elder abuse and a state order to surrender any firearms.

    “The state basically said, If it’s not you, go to the courthouse. They’ll give you a letter and they’ll get you reinstated,” said Carpenter.

    But that’s not how it played out.

    “Then, he finally comes out, and he’s like you basically have to go to court on the 27th, in two weeks. So I said, ‘I’m guilty until I prove myself innocent? That’s why I’m here, trying to show its not me.’ And he’s like, ‘Since you‘re here, you’ve been served. Here’s your restraining order,’” Carpenter recalled.

    He finally connected with someone in the sheriff’s office, who helped him get the injunction dismissed and called the state to get his firearms license reinstated.

    “They said they process it in the order it was received and it takes 6-8 weeks. I was like, ‘So you can suspend it in one day, instantly, but for somebody else’s mistake, I’ve got to wait 6-8 weeks?’”

    After months of defending himself and fighting the phony order, the good-guy Jon Carpenter eventually got his rights back. But he had to prove his own innocence in the face of assumed guilt.

    Here’s one of the documents from the court orders, courtesy of Ammoland:

    Video story also by Fox 13:

    https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/3qd...3cd2878d37.jpg

    1-3cd2878d37.jpg
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Oakland Mills, Pennsylvania
    (Juniata County)
    Posts
    3,396
    Rep Power
    21474847

    Default Re: Red Flag Abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness 1864 View Post
    A new one from Florida and it is bad.

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...law-execution/
    More details ammo land report. He sounds like an outstanding person to make a federal case out of it.

    Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/flo...#ixzz6EAR6jMr2
    Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
    Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook


    Florida Man Has Firearms Rights Taken Away Over Mistaken Identity

    Ammoland Inc. Posted on August 18, 2019 by John Crump
    Arrest Shows NY Authorities Rather Home Owners be Disarmed than Defended
    Florida Man Has Firearms Rights Taken Away Over Mistaken Identity
    St. Cloud, FL –-(Ammoland.com)- Last Wednesday, Jonathan Carpenter of Osceola County, Florida was sitting at home when a mail carrier knocked on his front door.


    The postal carrier had Carpenter signed for a certified letter from the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. Carpenter signed for it, but he was confused because he was not expecting anything from the state. He quickly opened it and was floored.

    The Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services was notifying him that they have suspended his concealed handgun permit.


    “On or about August 12th, 2019 in Osceola County, Florida, an injunction was entered restraining you from acts of domestic violence or acts of repeat violations,” the notice read.

    The letter shocked Carpenter, who has never had a run-in with the law.


    “When I opened the letter stating my CCW was suspended, I was shocked and confused,” Carpenter told AmmoLand News.

    Figuring it was a mistake, Carpenter called the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services to clear things up since he has never committed domestic violence against anyone. The representative told him he had to get a form from the Clerk of the Courts saying that there weren't any actions against him.

    Carpenter headed to Clerk of the Court's office to retrieve the required form. When he got there, the Clerk informed him that there was an injunction against a Jonathan Edward Carpenter.

    “What do I have to do to prove that you have the wrong Jonathan Edward Carpenter?” he asked the Clerk.

    The Clerk instructed Carpenter to go downstairs to talk to the Osceola County Sheriff's office to clear things up. Carpenter still figuring that it was just a mistake that the Sheriff’s office could quickly clear up went and spoke with him.

    The Sheriff’s office supplied Carpenter with a copy of the injunction. In the statement, the plaintiff stated that she rented a room out to a “Jonathan Edward Carpenter” and his girlfriend. She alleged that this Carpenter was a drug dealer who broke her furniture and sold her belongings without her permission. He had a gun, and she feared for her life. She was not sure if the firearm was legal or not.

    Jonathan Carpenter of Osceola County, Florida Firearms Rights Taken Away Over Mistaken Identity – Redacted


    Carpenter had never met the woman in question and never lived at the address listed in the restraining order. Moreover, other than being white, he looked nothing like the man the terrorized the woman.

    The man in question is 5'8. Carpenter is 5'11. The alleged drug dealer is 110lbs. Carpenter is over 200. The man has black hair. Carpenter is completely bald. Last but not least, the man in question is covered in tattoos, and Carpenter only has a few.

    It was apparent that the police had the wrong man, but Carpenter was in for his biggest shock yet. The Sherriff’s office told Carpenter he had to surrender his guns. Carpenter never even had as much as a hearing, yet he was losing his rights.

    “The last thing on my mind was me having to turn over my gun,” Carpenter told AmmoLand. “I was upset when the Sheriff told me that I need to surrender my gun before any due process.”

    He would not be able to get them back until he goes to court so the women can verify to the judge that they have the wrong Jonathan Carpenter. He would have to petition the court for the return of his firearms. An added expense that Carpenter would have to cover himself!

    A police officer I spoke to off the record thinks that the courts ran a check for a Jonathan Edward Carpenter with a concealed carry permit. Although he could not tell me for sure, he thinks that is what happened in this particular case. He did say that this is a common practice.

    When I pressed the officer of the likelihood of a drug dealer obeying Florida gun laws and getting a concealed handgun permit, he agreed that it probably isn't likely. He then stated that police and courts do make mistakes all the time, but he insisted that it is better to make mistakes than not do anything. Many disagree with that point.

    For many, this is an example of how the system is broken. Second Amendment advocates worry with the expansion of extreme risk protection orders these situations will become more prevalent. Currently, 17 states have these red flag laws on the books.

    Florida passed the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Act in 2018. This is Florida’s version of a red flag law. Although this isn’t technically a risk protection order, many think cases like this highlight how red flag laws can be misused to disarm innocent people.

    For Carpenter, he has to wait until August 27th for his day in court to start the process of getting his firearms rights back. To him, he had the presumption of innocence taken away. He is currently seeking legal counsel.

    https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/flo...#axzz6EAQQotpO
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  8. #38
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    127.0.0.1, Pennsylvania
    (Lancaster County)
    Posts
    18,116
    Rep Power
    21474868

    Default Re: Red Flag Abuse

    The law is the law, common sense be damned. I'm always amazed at the absolute lack of intelligence by those tasked with upholding the law.
    Rules are written in the stone,
    Break the rules and you get no bones,
    all you get is ridicule, laughter,
    and a trip to the house of pain.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lancaster, Pennsylvania
    (Lancaster County)
    Posts
    4,735
    Rep Power
    21474853

    Default Re: Red Flag Abuse

    Abuse is the intention of the law.
    "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" -- Penn Jillette

    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." -- Ted Nugent

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234

Similar Threads

  1. 3 instances of Red Flag abuse in one week!
    By buckengr in forum National
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: September 5th, 2019, 06:50 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Local gun shops | Local shooting ranges | Philadelphia Shooting Ranges | Philadelphia Gun Shops | Pittsburgh Shooting Ranges | Pittsburgh Gun Shops