Question About Buying A Long Gun In PA

[j_h_smith]

Simple first as a responsible person who doesn't know who they are dealing with this helps remove a great deal of reasonable doubt as to whether or not the person is both a PA resident and legally able to own a firearm, a Drivers license does not guarantee that said person still resides in PA. There are several ways to move to another state and then not turn in your old license for example just take a new test and say you don't have one or even tell them you don't have your old one. Either way it at least removes doubt in the event said person is a liar you can at least with certainty state you did everything reasonable to verify on your part the the person was a legal resident and also not prohibited (which several people have stated already)

It also helps support that the transaction to your knowledge was OK to proceed with. The last thing I need is some yahoo buying a rifle and going on a spree even worse an undercover agent trying to set my happy ass up.

Second as responsible firearm owners and people who want less govt. interaction we are and should be capable of policing ourselves, this includes making sure I am dealing with another law abiding responsible citizen within reason of the law.

Finally if one does not wish to engage in said sale because someone is doing their due diligence they are more than welcome to move on. I don't personally keep any information and in my interactions I have had one person have me sign a bill of sale which I am perfectly fine with as I am also fine with showing my ltcf. So it's not an issue of any Draconian strange PA law it's what we, for the majority of us anyway, call responsible firearm ownership while doing things that prevent the govt from becoming more involved by policing ourselves and being responsible for ourselves.

sooooo basically you have nothing relevant to dispute my explanation but hey everyone is tough on the internet once they can't raise a valid counter to a logical statement. It's like a 5 year old who doesn't have an answer just says the same thing that has no relevance but louder in the hopes that it wins an argument. Very similar to most democrat candidates.

Sorry, I didn't think I needed to address everyone's email if their argument was disproved by another post in this thread. But since you asked, I will AGAIN address your fallacies with your argument.

First and foremost. By YOU looking at a LTCF does not preclude you from asking if the buyer is prohibited. By looking at a LTCF before you hand over your rifle to the buyer, does not mean it's a lawful transaction. No more than any other form of ID. IF YOU want to protect yourself, you would have a Bill of Sale with the name, address and some form of ID like a driver's license Or even a LTCF clearly identifying each individual. Remember, as a buyer, I could also be buying a stolen firearm. I sure would want to protect myself in that manner as well. As the omnipresent GunLawyer has said, anyone can print a fake LTCF and where does that leave you as the seller? A lunatic going off after buying your rifle is not likely and that's where the BGOS comes into play. There are literally thousands of FTF transactions taking place every weekend around the country and I'd bet that the rate of those firearms being used illegally is probably .0001%. Like I said, these FTF transactions occur in states around PA without incident. MD, VA and WV all allow FTF transfers without proper ID being needed. Unless you have knowledge that you are selling to someone who is prohibited or who is a danger to himself or others, there's not many courts that would find you guilty of a crime. Why, because you haven't committed any crimes.

Secondly as your argument states, self policing is one thing. That would be asking if the buyer is prohibited. Policing does not include making it impossible for a legal transfer of a firearm to a citizen who is not prohibited by some self imposed guideline that is not based on any reasonable interpretation of law. Policing does not prohibit a free man from exercising his 2A right because you or anyone else feels that they should withhold his right because of some misguided BGOS OPINION.

Finally, you've proven my point. If you don't keep any information about your transactions, what good is any of this? So you looked at a piece of paper, even if you have did have a Bill of Sale, you admitted to not keeping this information. What proof would you then have if the guy conducted an illegal act with YOUR firearm?

I hope that you feel better now that I directly answered YOUR questions or concerns. However, I want you to know I don't need to sit behind a computer screen to be tough, unlike yourself. I never once felt I was trying to be a tough guy, I just wanted to know why a piece of paper (real or counterfeit) holds so much power in the state of PA. Your handle fits your snobbish attitude.

[DavidH]

We have carry permits in Md and they're not as difficult to get as people believe. I have one and it's unrestricted.

I'm not interested in violating Federal law and that's not what this discussion is about. I'm interested in this unwritten rule that someone has to have a de facto license to purchase a firearm when it's not required by PA law.

I have a hard time believing you have a carry permit in Maryland. One of the State’s prerequisites is you must “have a good and substantial reason to wear and carry or transport a handgun”. So I’m gonna call BS!

Pretty hilarious, someone who lives in the “ILLEGAL ALIEN RAPIST” sanctuary state of Maryland, trying in any way to compare firearms laws to Pa. Pennsylvania is one of the most gun friendly states!

So yeah, I believe you are lying.

[R L Suehr]

Sorry, I didn't think I needed to address everyone's email if their argument was disproved by another post in this thread. But since you asked, I will AGAIN address your fallacies with your argument.

First and foremost. By YOU looking at a LTCF does not preclude you from asking if the buyer is prohibited. By looking at a LTCF before you hand over your rifle to the buyer, does not mean it's a lawful transaction. No more than any other form of ID. IF YOU want to protect yourself, you would have a Bill of Sale with the name, address and some form of ID like a driver's license Or even a LTCF clearly identifying each individual. Remember, as a buyer, I could also be buying a stolen firearm. I sure would want to protect myself in that manner as well. As the omnipresent GunLawyer has said, anyone can print a fake LTCF and where does that leave you as the seller? A lunatic going off after buying your rifle is not likely and that's where the BGOS comes into play. There are literally thousands of FTF transactions taking place every weekend around the country and I'd bet that the rate of those firearms being used illegally is probably .0001%. Like I said, these FTF transactions occur in states around PA without incident. MD, VA and WV all allow FTF transfers without proper ID being needed. Unless you have knowledge that you are selling to someone who is prohibited or who is a danger to himself or others, there's not many courts that would find you guilty of a crime. Why, because you haven't committed any crimes.

Secondly as your argument states, self policing is one thing. That would be asking if the buyer is prohibited. Policing does not include making it impossible for a legal transfer of a firearm to a citizen who is not prohibited by some self imposed guideline that is not based on any reasonable interpretation of law. Policing does not prohibit a free man from exercising his 2A right because you or anyone else feels that they should withhold his right because of some misguided BGOS OPINION.

Finally, you've proven my point. If you don't keep any information about your transactions, what good is any of this? So you looked at a piece of paper, even if you have did have a Bill of Sale, you admitted to not keeping this information. What proof would you then have if the guy conducted an illegal act with YOUR firearm?

I hope that you feel better now that I directly answered YOUR questions or concerns. However, I want you to know I don't need to sit behind a computer screen to be tough, unlike yourself. I never once felt I was trying to be a tough guy, I just wanted to know why a piece of paper (real or counterfeit) holds so much power in the state of PA. Your handle fits your snobbish attitude.

Dude why is it so hard to understand, it's just a way to try and weed out potential bullshit. By asking you eliminate a good portion of shitbags that might respond that are prohibition. You also eliminate a good portion of out of state people that might get you in Trouble. That's worth it to me right there, regardless of anything else. Next your dealing with dwindling percentage of asshole. People that are actually trying to skirt the law most likely won't reply to the add. People that are planning on reselling illegally have something to think about. The number of people who actually don't possess LTC here is way smaller than the availabile buyer pole, so it's not that limiting a factor.

It's 100% not the same as the govt requiring a bc no matter how you try and spin it and before you start to accuse anyone of being anti-rights you might want to look up what they actually do for the 2A in this state. I've seen and met several responders to this thread at rallies standing up for the second amendment and freedom.

[HKusp 45]

Sorry, I didn't think I needed to address everyone's email if their argument was disproved by another post in this thread. But since you asked, I will AGAIN address your fallacies with your argument.

First and foremost. By YOU looking at a LTCF does not preclude you from asking if the buyer is prohibited. By looking at a LTCF before you hand over your rifle to the buyer, does not mean it's a lawful transaction. No more than any other form of ID. IF YOU want to protect yourself, you would have a Bill of Sale with the name, address and some form of ID like a driver's license Or even a LTCF clearly identifying each individual. Remember, as a buyer, I could also be buying a stolen firearm. I sure would want to protect myself in that manner as well. As the omnipresent GunLawyer has said, anyone can print a fake LTCF and where does that leave you as the seller? A lunatic going off after buying your rifle is not likely and that's where the BGOS comes into play. There are literally thousands of FTF transactions taking place every weekend around the country and I'd bet that the rate of those firearms being used illegally is probably .0001%. Like I said, these FTF transactions occur in states around PA without incident. MD, VA and WV all allow FTF transfers without proper ID being needed. Unless you have knowledge that you are selling to someone who is prohibited or who is a danger to himself or others, there's not many courts that would find you guilty of a crime. Why, because you haven't committed any crimes.

Secondly as your argument states, self policing is one thing. That would be asking if the buyer is prohibited. Policing does not include making it impossible for a legal transfer of a firearm to a citizen who is not prohibited by some self imposed guideline that is not based on any reasonable interpretation of law. Policing does not prohibit a free man from exercising his 2A right because you or anyone else feels that they should withhold his right because of some misguided BGOS OPINION.

Finally, you've proven my point. If you don't keep any information about your transactions, what good is any of this? So you looked at a piece of paper, even if you have did have a Bill of Sale, you admitted to not keeping this information. What proof would you then have if the guy conducted an illegal act with YOUR firearm?

I hope that you feel better now that I directly answered YOUR questions or concerns. However, I want you to know I don't need to sit behind a computer screen to be tough, unlike yourself. I never once felt I was trying to be a tough guy, I just wanted to know why a piece of paper (real or counterfeit) holds so much power in the state of PA. Your handle fits your snobbish attitude.

so in other words you disagree with us protecting ourselves within a reason what I said was I take reasonable steps in the event something happens and it comes back to try to bite me in the ass. (which it never has because of the way I conduct myself.) That's your opinion and that's about all it is. Here in America you can have that and I (as well as well most of the people here based on the conversation) disagree with your opinion. Your response was to shout like a child as you have and is well documented in about 50% of your responses to people airing their opinion. I'd say the majority of your posting here was on this thread and based on what I know of MD (of which a very close friend lives) it's almost impossible if not improbable that anyone other than law enforcement or someone with a political tie has a permit to carry. (My friend also works at the Aberdeen proving grounds and can't get one).

Me looking simply supports in the event it comes back to me I have a much stronger legal defense (again as previously mentioned) in the event some whack job goes crazy with a firearm traced back to me, that i did everything within reason to believe that person was not prohibited. If you can support a reason why someone shouldn't do that by all means enlighten me with your wisdom that has kept so many out of jail based on not doing so while being investigated by the police. I am very confident that in any case the police and a judge as well as an uneducated jury would happily say hey he looked at the guy and felt it was okay to sell him a rifle. He did everything a reasonable person would do to prevent a firearm in a face to face transaction within his control to sell to a person who was not prohibited....Said no one ever.

I'm still unsure why it irritates you we chose to be more responsible than the minimum required by the law. We don't want any excuses by the govt. as to why we should be required to go spend more money at an ffl and be added to yet another "sales" database. We still have a level of freedom here in PA that we both respect and want to not only keep but improve. The best way to do that is to be better than we need to ... Or at least better than MD, NJ, and NY.

But I digress you have your opinion your welcome to it feel free to respond or not it seems the last word is what your after and I'm not sure who your trying to get to say what but you most definitely reek of a democrat troll trying to get people to speak out of turn and put in writing as to why it's ok to be irresponsible as a firearm owner .....you came to the wrong place.

[HKusp 45]

Sorry brother I'm out of "likes"

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to R L Suehr again.

[str8shooter]

Battered
Gun
Owner
Syndrome

It's used to describe a gun owner who has been beat by the Left to the point that he actually does the Left's work for them because he wants to be politically correct.

Look, I get it. I do understand that you are protecting yourself against a possible lawsuit or prosecution. But at what cost? If everyone is going to require a government license to purchase a firearm, then isn't this exactly what the Left wants from society? In the future, what would you say if EVERYONE is mandated to need a license granted by your government to purchase a firearm? Would you be upset about that? Well isn't that what you've done to yourself by placing this restriction on buying a firearm from you?

I'm here to discuss this issue. To those who feel the need to add a snide remark, have at it. I'm a big boy and you're not going to chase me from this discussion with your remarks. If the mods want to shut this thread down, then so be it. But I'm trying to understand why Conservative, gun loving, Constitution believers, would restrict another from the purchase of a firearm just like the Left, liberal, gun hating, socialists would do.

Have a great day my fellow Conservative brothers and sisters.

Why is asking to see a LTCF for a FTF sale in PA any different than a MD resident asking for a DL to prove residency? If you're going to fall back on BGOS for every counterpoint to your side of the discussion, then it would apply to any FTF sale in any state. Are you saying you would advocate a non MD resident coming to MD to purchase a firearm, no questions asked because asking for proof of residency only reinforces the "Left, liberal, gun hating socialists" control over gun ownership? If so, let me know when you're running for Congress, because you will get my vote!

[DavidH]

Yeah, now I am really calling BS! In 2014 Maryland ONLY had 14,298 ACTIVE PERMITS out of the 6 MILLION residents! So unless you KNOW SOMEONE or are a business owner..... you AINT GETTIN’ ONE! Your statement was wrong.

[Hodgie]

I have a hard time believing you have a carry permit in Maryland. One of the State’s prerequisites is you must “have a good and substantial reason to wear and carry or transport a handgun”. So I’m gonna call BS!

Pretty hilarious, someone who lives in the “ILLEGAL ALIEN RAPIST” sanctuary state of Maryland, trying in any way to compare firearms laws to Pa. Pennsylvania is one of the most gun friendly states!

So yeah, I believe you are lying.

They don’t even give them out to retired or disabled law enforcement most of the time, and this I know for a fact.

[j_h_smith]

I have a hard time believing you have a carry permit in Maryland. One of the State’s prerequisites is you must “have a good and substantial reason to wear and carry or transport a handgun”. So I’m gonna call BS!

Pretty hilarious, someone who lives in the “ILLEGAL ALIEN RAPIST” sanctuary state of Maryland, trying in any way to compare firearms laws to Pa. Pennsylvania is one of the most gun friendly states!

So yeah, I believe you are lying.

Sure, I'm lying and MD's liberal law allow for FTF transfers without any paperwork or even showing a DL and gun owners who don't have BGOS. If you want to look it up, landlords now qualify for carry permits.

How's it feel to be so wrong in 1 post????

[streaker69]

Sure, I'm lying and MD's liberal law allow for FTF transfers without any paperwork or even showing a DL and gun owners who don't have BGOS. If you want to look it up, landlords now qualify for carry permits.

How's it feel to be so wrong in 1 post????

Oh, the irony. You're here bitching about PA gun owners while being proud that you're one of the few that "qualify" for a carry permit.