Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunsnwater View Post
    Any reason his parents haven't gifted him a gun already?
    Maybe they've past-away. Maybe he just doesn't get along with them, maybe they live in NJ and he now resides in PA in which case they can't transfer one to him. Ultimately you will have to ask him

  2. #42
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    You are correct, as usual, but the legal path is VERY narrow, and the consequences for straying off the path are severe, and include the permanent lifetime loss of all gun rights.

    If he lives in Philadelphia, he can't even open carry it out the door. He can't drive with it almost anywhere except to the range. If he completes an 80% build, he'll have an un-serialized gun that looks to most cops like an illegal gun (it's not) carried by a kid who can't possibly have an LTCF (which is true). And if he takes it across state lines, he'll have to deal with the cops of other states, like NY, who have little to no respect for the exemptions of FOPA.

    He could inherit a handgun, but most relatives will frown at that request.

    He could be gifted one by a parent or grandparent, but if he fronts them the money, it becomes straw purchase.

    If he were my client (he's not), I'd advise him to wait 3 years. Buying the mags now is good advice. Pay cash.
    That last part. That doesn't cheer me up any.
    The Gun is the Badge of a Free Man

  3. #43
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExFlyinguy View Post
    Maybe they've past-away. Maybe he just doesn't get along with them, maybe they live in NJ and he now resides in PA in which case they can't transfer one to him. Ultimately you will have to ask him
    Maybe he's a Russian or AI bot. I figured my post covered that in a round about way. The power of poofa compels you!
    The Gun is the Badge of a Free Man

  4. #44
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunsnwater View Post
    Maybe he's a Russian or AI bot. I figured my post covered that in a round about way. The power of poofa compels you!
    Sorry I'm a little pissy. I am just a little dumbfounded by what the OP has experienced here. Just short of hostility, coupled with some flat out wrong information. It's one thing to offer an opinion and/or *Correct* legal facts concerning the transportation of a handgun(particularly an 80%) to Vermont. Telling a new member to go use google and learn the law, get 3 years older etc. instead of getting the best factual information here (which is kind of why I thought this site existed) leaves me shaking my head.
    "It seems that the Constitution is more or less guidelines than actual rules"
    My feedback: http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=305685

  5. #45
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    A right not exercised, is a right lost.

    It seems like a long time ago, but I can still remember when I was 18, and three years sure seemed like a long time then.

    It's a damn shame that the best advice we can give to the guy is, "You can do it, but have a good attorney on retainer."

    I hope the young man's intentions are pure. If so, perhaps he should completely explain his situation and explore what kind of support he might get from a go-fund-me to help him pursue his endeavor.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExFlyinguy View Post
    Sorry I'm a little pissy. I am just a little dumbfounded by what the OP has experienced here. Just short of hostility, coupled with some flat out wrong information. It's one thing to offer an opinion and/or *Correct* legal facts concerning the transportation of a handgun(particularly an 80%) to Vermont. Telling a new member to go use google and learn the law, get 3 years older etc. instead of getting the best factual information here (which is kind of why I thought this site existed) leaves me shaking my head.
    I wasn't trying to be a dick towards him or blow him off, I just don't want to see the rest of his life defined negatively because of one choice he made when he was 18.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hodgie View Post
    Kid before you do anything I would contact an attorney who deals in firearms. Your current need to have a Glock 19 at 18 years old living in a very unfriendly towards firearms city can reroute your entire life and not on the positive track.

    Go to a range that rents firearms and have some fun for a day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hodgie View Post
    I wasn't trying to be a dick towards him or blow him off, I just don't want to see the rest of his life defined negatively because of one choice he made when he was 18.
    I didn't mean you Hodgie. I think you gave a valid opinion to seek legal advice.

    I'm referring to statements like these:
    Wow...so many possible felonies here. WRONG

    You need to be 21 to have a handgun legally transferred to you. WRONG.
    yeah, see you in 3 years... learn the law first. google is a wonderful thing
    "It seems that the Constitution is more or less guidelines than actual rules"
    My feedback: http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=305685

  8. #48
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    You are correct, as usual, but the legal path is VERY narrow, and the consequences for straying off the path are severe, and include the permanent lifetime loss of all gun rights.

    If he lives in Philadelphia, he can't even open carry it out the door. He can't drive with it almost anywhere except to the range. If he completes an 80% build, he'll have an un-serialized gun that looks to most cops like an illegal gun (it's not) carried by a kid who can't possibly have an LTCF (which is true). And if he takes it across state lines, he'll have to deal with the cops of other states, like NY, who have little to no respect for the exemptions of FOPA.

    He could inherit a handgun, but most relatives will frown at that request.

    He could be gifted one by a parent or grandparent, but if he fronts them the money, it becomes straw purchase.

    If he were my client (he's not), I'd advise him to wait 3 years. Buying the mags now is good advice. Pay cash.
    I only disagree with you on one point above. Both 6107 and 6108 restrict "upon the public streets or upon any public property", so depending on the characteristics of his home, he may well be able to legally open carry in his yard. I won't argue the narrowness of the legal path, or the potential wisdom and risks involved, even with wholly lawful activity, but IMO, those cautions should come after the requested answer, and with a modicum of respect. That used to be the way it was done here. The general tone of the responses this young man received (not from you) sickens me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExFlyinguy View Post
    Sorry I'm a little pissy. I am just a little dumbfounded by what the OP has experienced here. Just short of hostility, coupled with some flat out wrong information. It's one thing to offer an opinion and/or *Correct* legal facts concerning the transportation of a handgun(particularly an 80%) to Vermont. Telling a new member to go use google and learn the law, get 3 years older etc. instead of getting the best factual information here (which is kind of why I thought this site existed) leaves me shaking my head.
    I'm glad I'm not the only one. Words of caution are certainly wise here, but the OP asked some very specific questions, looking to confirm answers he had already researched himself. As it turns out, he was right on every count. The misinformation and discouragement thrown his way are good examples of why our cause is in the shape it's in.

    Sage advice from an experienced attorney is pragmatic, but the outright put-downs and discouragement, let alone the blatantly incorrect legal info from veteran posters, offered to someone simply wanting clarification of his own research was shameful. Regardless of the choices this young man makes, I hope he sticks around here. It's clear we are in desperate need of some fresh blood.
    Attention NRA Life and voting members - LPRGCFRANK running for NRA board of directors

  9. #49
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    You are correct, as usual, but the legal path is VERY narrow, and the consequences for straying off the path are severe, and include the permanent lifetime loss of all gun rights.

    If he lives in Philadelphia, he can't even open carry it out the door. He can't drive with it almost anywhere except to the range. If he completes an 80% build, he'll have an un-serialized gun that looks to most cops like an illegal gun (it's not) carried by a kid who can't possibly have an LTCF (which is true). And if he takes it across state lines, he'll have to deal with the cops of other states, like NY, who have little to no respect for the exemptions of FOPA.

    He could inherit a handgun, but most relatives will frown at that request.

    He could be gifted one by a parent or grandparent, but if he fronts them the money, it becomes straw purchase.

    If he were my client (he's not), I'd advise him to wait 3 years. Buying the mags now is good advice. Pay cash.
    This is my assessment as well. There is a legal pathway for him to build his own handgun and go to Vermont with it as well as go to local ranges. But there are landmines along the way, especially for interstate travel. The OP PM'ed me since I gave him the P80 idea in the other thread. My advice was that he has a choice to make based on his risk tolerance. The other route could be to just buy a shotgun/rifle from a dealer and have some risk minimized. I think my biggest concern for him would be to keep his mouth shut with friends or roommates about these plans and to invest in a good safe/lockbox if taking the plunge. Not doing anything stupid at a party, showing it off or being a tough guy is key.

    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    I'm glad I'm not the only one. Words of caution are certainly wise here, but the OP asked some very specific questions, looking to confirm answers he had already researched himself. As it turns out, he was right on every count. The misinformation and discouragement thrown his way are good examples of why our cause is in the shape it's in.

    Sage advice from an experienced attorney is pragmatic, but the outright put-downs and discouragement, let alone the blatantly incorrect legal info from veteran posters, offered to someone simply wanting clarification of his own research was shameful. Regardless of the choices this young man makes, I hope he sticks around here. It's clear we are in desperate need of some fresh blood.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by jthrelf; September 19th, 2019 at 09:10 AM.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: This is 100% legal from what i can see but i want to make sure.

    For posterity and peer-review, I'm posting my PM back to him (no I don't feel bad posting a private message, because they're my words not his).

    Quote Originally Posted by jthrelf
    You're subject to all of PA's transportation laws. I found a good article here:
    https://blog.princelaw.com/2008/9/12...out-a-license/

    For going to VT like you mentioned it looks like you'd be covered under #14. You'd have to look up and follow the federal FOPA interstate transportation law. Then you'd have to look up VT laws, but it looks like you'd be ok doing what you mentioned. Also now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if any states issue non-resident permits to people under 21 - you could look that up too and it could get you some other reciprocal states - but probably not PA if I had to guess.

    www.handgunlaw.us is a good resource for individual state laws.

    Ok now for the practicality: is it a good idea to do all this? Any cop will probably automatically view you as "kid carrying gun illegally" not "young adult responsibly carrying". So you're at a disadvantage from the get-go. Add in the fact you'll have an unserialized handgun. Even though everything is legal, you could still wind up in hot water. You have determine if it's worth it. Of course I'm a proponent of people carrying to protect themselves and others and for recreation, but the fact is that you probably have a higher chance getting in trouble with a gun in this situation than you do needing it to save your life. Do you or your parents have the means for a good defense attorney if needed?

    You're also traveling through 'high-risk' area of anti-gun NY to get to VT. Make sure you're an absolute wizard with the applicable laws. Print everything out to carry with you, including the Polymer 80 ATF determination letter.

    I'd say - when in doubt, go the conversative route and don't carry, etc. The next few years aren't worth losing your rights to a felony for a lifetime. Even being 21 you'll face the same situations with traveling. When I travel and bring my gun it's stressful to learn and know the laws of the state I'm in. A misunderstanding could put in jail - I'm not a lawyer. Remember you'll almost never be able to open carry in PA in today's environment that there is a constant state of emergency, and you live in Philly. So having it for home defense and fun at the range will be most of your use.

    What is your living situation right now? Do you have roommates? First thing I would do is not tell any of your friends about this. Don't do anything stupid (like i mentioned) like taking it out at a party, bragging to someone, etc. Next thing you know it gets stolen because someone talked to someone who talked to someone. Get a very good lockbox or safe - invest in that first. Don't ever be a tough guy. Make sure you know PA deadly force laws.

    Do you have a PA driver's license and are actually a resident? Not just living here as an NJ resident?

    For actually building a P80 know that they need some fine detail work sometimes and usually a 200 round break in period. But it's certainly a fun project if you're a bit handy. If you mess it up and it only works some of the time - just get another frame since they're cheap enough and make another. Think about getting a custom serial number of your choice engraved to avoid potential cops saying "wtf is this".

    Also with all this said - why don't you just purchase a rifle or shotgun with a bit less risk than all this? Not knocking it - just curious why you wouldn't want to go to a dealer and buy an AR for defense/range use in a much easier fashion.

    Good luck!

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