Pittsburgh Councilmen propose bill on lost & stolen handguns

[HiredGoon]

Councilmen propose bill on lost and stolen handguns
Tuesday, October 14, 2008
By Rich Lord, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Three members of Pittsburgh City Council introduced legislation today that would require the owners of lost or stolen handguns to report that event to police within 24 hours, or face fines of $500.

Council President Doug Shields and colleagues William Peduto and Bruce Kraus said the legislation would strike at a major source of illegal handguns: so-called "straw purchasers" who buy the weapons and sell them on the black market. When the gun is later used in a crime, and the owner is confronted, he or she says, "I lost it," according to Mr. Peduto.

Guns are "purchased by straw purchasers who have no intention of obeying the law, and every intention of getting those guns into the hands of criminals," said Mr. Shields. If the legislation is passed, such straw purchasers would eventually be caught, convicted, tagged with a record and thus prevented from continuing to buy guns.

The legislation mirrors a measure rejected by the General Assembly in April, in spite of a unanimous council resolution recommending passage. Philadelphia and Allentown have since adopted local lost-and-stolen gun reporting rules.

Mr. Kraus argued that the legislation doesn't violate a state ban on local rules on the sale or ownership of guns. "Once a handgun is separated from its owner, it becomes an illegal weapon," he said.

They were backed by Jana Finder and Francis Vitti, Western Pennsylvania leaders of CeaseFire PA, and Mary Beth Hacke, mother of Ryan Hacke, who was gunned down at 14 months of age in a random shooting in 1997.

"The gun that was used to murder my baby was on the street for six years," Ms. Hacke said, and it was involved in two other homicides.

Pittsburgh is on pace to finish the year with its highest body count in 15 years.

Under the proposed ordinance, a second conviction for failing to report a lost or stolen handgun would bring a $1,000 fine or 90 days in prison.

[Steve in PA]

So if my car, wallet, Ipod, etc is seperated from me.......do they now become "illegal"?????

[WhiteFeather]

Calling Kim Stolfer........ to do another smack down on Pittsburgh city council AGAIN. These people are incorrigible, and luckly for them the Allegheny County DA won't arrest council for comitting a crime.

[WhiteFeather]

Before the debate starts why shouldn’t you be required to report you gun stolen read this Allegheny county real case example of the law not doing its stated purpose about straw purchases.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/pennsylva...er-barrel.html

The woman in this story should have gotten 42 years in jail and instead got probation, and this article was written as a reason for enacting more stricter laws.
The cop in this article is a real gem and has lobbied for more gun control in Harrisburg.

IF WE are not going to aggressively prosecute criminal actions under existing laws we sure don't need another one to make criminals out of victims of criminal’s actions, with a would of should have known your gun is stolen law.

[jerkin]

I am quickly tiring of the whole "straw buyer" argument and these people pushing for legislation of a problem which may be nonexistent. Can anyone show how often this really happens? Could it be that it is only a problem in the minds of antis?

[Kies99]

This is nuts. If my gun is lost or stolen I'm definitely going to report it so that maybe I'll actually get it back at some point or reimbursed through insurance.

HOWEVER!! I can't stand that 24 hour time frame. What if I'm on vacation for a week and don't know the gun is gone? What if there's a holiday or weekend or some other time when I can't get it reported? I think that needs to be defined better and allow for situations like this if it's going to go through.

[WhiteFeather]

I am quickly tiring of the whole "straw buyer" argument and these people pushing for legislation of a problem which may be nonexistent. Can anyone show how often this really happens? Could it be that it is only a problem in the minds of antis?

You asked the right questions.

The anti-gunner have a linear tactics unified by a common front using BIG MONEY organizations operating at the state levels because the federal level they have been stoned walled by congress. The reason for making a big deal about illegal straw purchases there are several goal they can achieve by demonstrating this to the public. To bad for the anti-gunner WE were here first to deal with the real problems of illegal straw purchases, not trying to just use it politically as a means to their Anti- Gun agenda.

1. one gun a month legislation
2. lost and stolen legislation – also next is trigger lock and mandatory safes
3. lobby for local enactment laws


The object of all three basic concepts is to find a way to criminalize gun owners, discourage gun ownership, making gun owning to expensive to comply with all the regulations, and every law the anti-gunners get on the books is another chance to get legal owners put into jail.

IF you want a simple break down on what anti-gun laws was proposed in PA this session why we problems with them read this one here. You will find your answer here of why the AG are trying to use straw purchases and other same old lame failed concepts as a tools to get gun control.

ACSL - Anti Gun Rights Bills Summary as of March 25, 2008
http://acslpa.org/n-legislative/anti...ry_3_25_08.htm


Also to answer you other question about is straw purchases a serious problem. Yes, it is a real problem, unfortunately the same people screaming for more laws are not aggressive prosecuting violators right now under existing laws when they are caught or stopped by FFL dealers.

PA Firearms Laws & PA Commission on Sentencing Reports
http://acslpa.org/n-legislative/pa_firearms_laws.htm

In this report is the hard numbers to prove my statements and to directly answer your questions, We have the newer updated information (more recent years) plus several new sections of the UFA I just had not had the extra, extra time to do the rough draft for a new report.


The anti-gunner are using this basic concept on US.
Using the German philosopher Hegel (sp) conflict crisis theory of political resolutions to achieve goals.
Thesis - create a problem or use a existing problem
Anti-thesis - demonstrate the problem
Solution - offer the solution to the problem that would have not been possible without the first two steps to get the desired political results of swaying peoples minds.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Update just got off the phone with Kim Stolfer he has done a couple of local and state interviews with reporters on this subject and IF they print anything he told them the sparks are going to fly.

Some of the questions Kim asked..... Note : these are paraphased by me not Kim's exact words.

Where do they get the statutory authority to enact laws from?

How are they going to enforce their made up laws?

How are they going to work where they failed everwhere else they have been tried?

Title 18, Section 6120, which limits government's regulation of firearms and ammunition.

"No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth,"

It also violates the home rule charter

Kim also asked what is the differance between some breaking the law and Pittsburgh City Council breaking the law? This was a short circuit to the reporters.

Nothing except council probably wears nicer clothes, they are both comitting criminal acts and both should be punished or no one should be punished.

How can a govenment ruling body hold or proescute any citizens to any laws that they set themselves above to violate.........
We don't have a ruling elite that are above the laws..............


One reporter made a side comment how did HB 1845 get under their radar and get passed by a overwhelming majority? Kim said that is part of my job getting things done, without fan fare.

Kim also ask this question of the reporter

Where was all the anti-gun groups like ceasefire, million mom march, mom's against guns, the brady bunch and the rest of them?

We worked with the FOP, the PDAA and different coalitions from all over PA that wanted to work together to directly deal with criminals.
WHERE WERE ALL THE ANTI-GUN GROUPS?

Geez I forgot they only want to make criminal out of law abiding gun owners and NEVER say anything about dealing with criminals, just gun control.


These was just some of the points Kim made to the differant reporters.

[WhiteFeather]

From the next day paper by OP:
Note the internet quote and where it came from, yet another reason why you always be careful what you type in public forums, they can be quoted and used.

The paper should have just contacted Kim Stolfer Legislative chairmen for the Allegheny County Sportsmen League would have gotten much better material for the paper.
Contact Kim at 412-221-3346 or by email at activist@fyi.net



http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08289/919943-53.stm

City eyes crackdown on reporting lost guns
Legislation is aimed at 'straw purchasers' who sell handguns to criminals
Wednesday, October 15, 2008
By Rich Lord, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Pittsburgh became a front line in the debate over firearms laws yesterday, as three city council members proposed legislation requiring that owners report lost or stolen handguns to police, and gun rights advocates cried that they were overstepping their bounds.

"Any law-abiding person has nothing to fear here," said City Council President Doug Shields, who along with colleagues William Peduto and Bruce Kraus unveiled the legislation aimed at shutting down "straw purchasers" who sell handguns to criminals.

They argued that their measure deals only with reporting handguns that have gone missing, not regulating their sale or possession, and therefore doesn't infringe on state supremacy over gun laws, or the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment.

Gun-owner bulletin boards on the Internet lit up with criticism. "These people are incorrigible, and luckily for them, the Allegheny County D.A. won't arrest council for committing a crime," wrote one poster, identified as a county resident.

The ordinance would require that anyone whose handgun is lost or stolen in the city tell police within 24 hours, or potentially face a $500 fine. Failure to report the loss of a second handgun would result in a $1,000 fine with the possibility of 90 days in jail.

The penalty would kick in only if a handgun was used in a crime, recovered by police, and traced back to its original purchaser. "Once a handgun is separated from its owner, it becomes an illegal weapon," said Mr. Kraus.

The legislation mirrors an ordinance approved in Philadelphia in May 2007 that has been the subject of a court fight ever since. As a result, it hasn't produced a single prosecution or citation there, and the General Assembly rejected a statewide version in April. But the city of Allentown passed its own version early this month, and mayors of six other cities have vowed to try to get a version approved.

Mayor Luke Ravenstahl hasn't expressed a clear opinion on the matter and his administration provided no response to the legislation introduced yesterday.

District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. said straw purchasers are a problem, but council's legislation may not be a legal solution.

"A lot of times, somebody can't purchase a weapon, and these are bad people," he said. "And they get somebody to purchase a gun for them. ... It is a pipeline to get guns into the hands of bad people.

"I think [lost-and-stolen-gun legislation] is a tool that would help [Pittsburgh]," he said. "I just think the Legislature has to act on it."

Some legislators chided council for wading into an issue the General Assembly has declared to be a matter best dealt with in Harrisburg.

State Rep. Daryl Metcalfe, R-Cranberry, said that some local officials "instead of running for the Legislature, try to enact ordinances that can only be enacted in state policy." If council passes it, he said, "they will clearly just be wasting taxpayers' money. They will be overruled by the court."

The National Rifle Association is involved in the court fight against the Philadelphia ordinance.

"The proposed penalties do nothing more than victimize the victims" of gun thefts, said Washington, D.C.-based NRA spokeswoman Rachel Parsons.

The NRA last week criticized Pittsburgh zoning codes that restrict where guns can be sold. An attorney not affiliated with the NRA has challenged them in Common Pleas Court.

The measure comes before council as the city body count threatens to approach the record highs of 15 years ago.

Last year city police received 302 reports of lost or stolen guns, and they've gotten 202 such reports this year. They annually recover around half as many lost or stolen guns as are reported.

Overall, the city police investigated 890 guns involved in crimes in 2007, and 686 so far this year, according to Detective Brian Fleming of the Firearms Tracking Unit.

Eight states and seven cities have lost-and-stolen-handgun reporting laws, according to the Legal Community Against Violence.

Philadelphia's experience, though, suggests the difficulty of implementing such measures.

A lost-and-stolen-handgun reporting ordinance was among seven anti-gun measures pushed by Mayor Michael Nutter last year.

"We come upon people a lot," said Philadelphia police Lt. Frank Vanore, "and we find out through running [checks on] them that they bought five or six guns. We find two. Well, where are the other four? They say they lost them."

The Philadelphia lost-and-stolen-gun measure was one of three that survived an initial Common Pleas Court challenge, but late last month the Commonwealth Court knocked it down. The court ruled that the Legislature preempted local gun laws, but also noted that the Philadelphia measure required state approval -- something that never happened.

Lt. Vanore said the city still has the ordinance "on the books as a city ordinance that we could invoke to issue a fine." But with the courts and the local district attorney against them, they don't have the power to put anyone in jail for violating it.

Harrisburg Bureau Chief Tom Barnes contributed to this story. Rich Lord can be reached at rlord@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1542.
First published on October 15, 2008 at 12:00 am

[lildobe]

I heard this on WDUQ news this morning as I was working (i.e. sitting in traffic) this morning.

Now I know that these types of ordinances may be illegal under 6120 (preemption) - but what really got me was the city councilman's sound bite explaining why they want this law. They claimed that straw purchasers are going to gun shows and gun shops and then turning around and selling them on the street.

...

Does anyone else find this a ridiculous claim? Who in their right mind would go to a gun store or show, buy guns for $300-$500 each, then turn around and sell them on the street for $50-$150?

They also mentioned on the news that Allentown and Philly have similar laws on the books - but no mention of the illegality of said laws.

[Evolution]

Lancaster City is planning a similar ordinance. Mayor Rick Gray seems to think that he must challenge the state preemption by passing illegal laws.

http://www.wgal.com/news/17719756/detail.html