I finally had a bad OC experience.

[Justin///M]

Like I said you can't argue laws on the street, or on some forum for that matter.
take it to the state legislature in Harrisburg.
Don't go to the state capitol and hang around with an AR around your neck ,
At that point you're just being a dick and looking to get shot, then I guess somebody else can argue about it in court see if that changes anything. In the meantime your dead.

Oh man, I missed some early fireworks due to work. Anyway, here's me with an AR around my neck next to my local rep.





Another one of us yinzers.




I have some questions for you when you're back, about boot licking.

[Knightshift]

Wow! Dude's banned on the day he joined. Is that a record? Probly not. Wonder what the record for quickest ax is.

[GunLawyer001]

Serious question:

Say I'm OC in a situation that requires my LTCF (i.e. Philly, or SOE). Has there ever been an argument regarding OC relating to the bold part of 6122(a)? Is that another gap?

Good question; I think your issue is more about this:

§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.

No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:

(1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; . . .

The way it's worded, it also applies to open carry, and also makes the license an exception (the word "unless"). If they worded it "it's illegal to carry in Philly without a license" then they'd have to prove the lack of a license; but they instead said nobody can carry, unless you have a license, moving the burden to the citizen.

Hicks was in Allentown, I believe, so § 6108 wasn't relevant. You could maybe argue that the principle of Hicks extends to weaken § 6108, but that would be an extension of the law, not a direct application of Hicks.

I'm not a fan of police encounters with armed citizens, because there seems to be a Pavlovian kill-response to "GUN!GUN!GUN!", with some cops feeling entitled to empty their guns into citizens merely for being armed (or holding a wallet or cellphone). I'm REALLY not happy about cops seizing guns, racking slide, manipulating unfamiliar controls with the gun aimed at your head, emptying the magazines into baggies . . .we have rights, we shouldn't be treated as though we're evading justice on some technicality.

At the same time, I've seen enough videos of bland-faced citizens suddenly pulling guns and doing their best to murder cops for no apparent reason.

I think the best solution is NOT to treat every citizen as a likely murderer. Instead, we should stop coddling bad guys, we should identify the stone-cold killers and remove them from society earlier. I don't think anyone kills a cop as his first offense (even Lee Harvey Oswald shot the president before he shot the cop), they mostly were caught and released multiple times before. Catch & release is indulging the bad guys at the expense of the rest of us. Imagine a world where violent criminals get imprisoned once and permanently, and police deal with the rest of the people. Fewer cop killings, less reason for cops to fear any free man, fewer cops emptying their guns into suspects.

[Armor90]

There's lots of replies on this so, I'll just try to answer as many questions as I can at once. I was OC when I was sitting at the table.

Yeah, I think someone called the PD. I was only there for 45 minutes to an hour.

Well, the interaction went fine, only because I immediately complied and had the IDs requested within seconds. I'm not used to being approached by the PD and quite frankly, I handled it, in an abrupt, yet polite manner.

I think this is the last time I'm OC in the city. It's ridiculous that I was even approached. It's better to just CC and not be bothered.

My main camera is a Canon EOS R. I never used a Nikon, I prefer Canon because of lenses and compatibility with their digital printers, not that it matters much.

Thanks for all of the comments. 👍

[jeep]

And if one operates a motor vehicle on a public roadway they're required to have a driver's license. The police can't stop you while driving just to check your license.

But they can run your tag and see that the registered owner has a suspended drivers license and pull you over to check your drivers license

[Steve in PA]

But they can run your tag and see that the registered owner has a suspended drivers license and pull you over to check your drivers license

Mmmm........doesn't work that way because the person driving the vehicle may not be the registered owner or the person with the suspended license.

[john9001]

"Land of the free and home of the brave" are just some words to a song they play before a sports event.

[PGRNPA]

But they can run your tag and see that the registered owner has a suspended drivers license and pull you over to check your drivers license

Yes and now they have a reason for the stop as opposed to stopping random drivers just to see if they are licensed.

[gnbrotz]

Because there's a statute requiring you to produce it, under some vaguely-defined circumstances. And Hicks doesn't even mention that statute, so it would be an uphill battle to argue that Hicks nullifies section 6122. Not saying it couldn't work, just that you'd need a judge to find that the officer (who he sees in court a couple times every week) made an "unlawful demand" of you (who the judge never met before and likely won't see again) by asking to see the LTCF. (My argument in "weapons in schools" cases is "if he had a purpose, and it wasn't unlawful, then it was a lawful purpose"; that applies here, as well.)

We don't live in a world or a society where justice is the norm. You have to pick your battles, unless you make money fighting them, in which case I'd suggest that people who donate to such battles learn to pick them.

Phil, I agree with you I don't believe for one second that Hicks nullifies section 6122. But am I correct in saying that it looks like we have now, via Hicks, defined an out of bounds request in that the mere presence of a firearm makes a request for ID/LTCF unreasonable unless there is another circumstance afoot? If so, what might constitute a reasonable request?

Phil says "vaguely defined circumstances". PGRNPA says "request".

The statute says "lawful demand".

My version of 'pick you battles' would be to absolutely clarify (with recording) that the officer was "demanding". I won't even argue the "lawful" part. If you are willing to tell me that you ARE "demanding" it, I'll produce it. If you'd be "happy to see it" or "like to take a quick look at it".....not so much.

[Carson]

For years I've OC without a problem. I OC maybe 40% and CC 60% so, maybe that's why I haven't had an issue until now. I'm a photographer for a living and I went into Philadelphia today to buy some lenses off of someone. I then stopped by Gino's cheesesteaks because I hadn't been there in so long. It was delicious. I had their cheese fries also. I then called my GF and talked on the phone for about a half our after eating. I guess they had been watching me. As I walked over to my car, two officers approached me and asked me if I minded showing my DL and permit for my holstered H&K USP .40 S&W. I was really surprised by this. Did they spot my gun while I was sitting at a table and decided to ask me for various IDs while I was eating or talking on my phone? Wtf? I'm non-confrontational though so, I said sure, and pulled out both forms of ID. Welcome to the city I guess? :/

There is your problem. Should have gone to Pat’s.