Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    Quote Originally Posted by amstel78 View Post
    If I understand correctly then, pleading guilty to this charge essentially amounts to nil as far as an actual criminal record goes?

    I was thinking of the same argument if I went before a judge, but the argument would be a weak one based on semantics. I'm pretty sure the judge would have sided with the game commission. Thank you nonetheless for your input and wisdom. It's very much appreciated.
    I wouldn't say "nil", since (a) when asked about any arrests or citations or convictions, you'd have to read the question carefully, and (b) in the age of computers, anything could end up being accessible at the touch of a button.

    I recall hearing that certain county officials can put in any name and get a list of every bank account opened by that person, anywhere. It's supposed to make it easier to hold deadbeat dads accountable. But think about the other implications, and what the FBI did with the FISA court. If I get a judgment against somebody, I have to go to every bank and ask if that person has any accounts there (unless you believe that deadbeats answer interrogatories honestly.) Takes hours of work, weeks of waiting. The govt can do it instantly.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
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  2. #22
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    Feb 2015
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    Quote Originally Posted by amstel78 View Post
    But, I'm not willing to have a bench warrant for my arrest issued over $198.25.
    I would agree. Just me taking a cheap shot at the PA Road and Gate commission.
    FWIW and that may not be much. I have never been directly involved but it is well rumored that the DJ in my area for as long as I can recall has very often sided against the PA GAME COMM.,
    I had an issue in which I had been looking forward to pushing had I got pinched. It involved what was legal to hunt with , etc .....
    It may be penny wise pound foolish , but I'd probably push it , esp with the rumors in my area ..... and since I wouldn't consider it much of a hassle.
    But I certainly understand you may be dealing with a different point of view and/or circumstances.
    I'd at least find another place to shoot if possible. being restricted to a Game range would suck I think.
    Good luck , none the less.

  3. #23
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    Jun 2011
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    Shohola, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    I wouldn't say "nil", since (a) when asked about any arrests or citations or convictions, you'd have to read the question carefully, and (b) in the age of computers, anything could end up being accessible at the touch of a button.

    I recall hearing that certain county officials can put in any name and get a list of every bank account opened by that person, anywhere. It's supposed to make it easier to hold deadbeat dads accountable. But think about the other implications, and what the FBI did with the FISA court. If I get a judgment against somebody, I have to go to every bank and ask if that person has any accounts there (unless you believe that deadbeats answer interrogatories honestly.) Takes hours of work, weeks of waiting. The govt can do it instantly.
    Yes, I understand your point completely. From a firearm owner's perspective however, a guilty plea in this matter shouldn't preclude me from being able to answer NO to questions pertaining to arrests or convictions on a 4473 or an ATF form 1 or 4 right? At least that's my understanding after having read those questions. I'm curios as I recently acquired two suppressors (took 13 months to receive the stamps from the ATF). Should I want to purchase another can down the road or build an SBR, I imagine this incident wouldn't cause any undue complications with a federal background check?

    I also assume I'd have no problem renewing my PA LTCF when the time comes?

    Apologies if it sounds like I'm going in circles with my questioning; just want to do my due diligence. I'm still leaning towards just pleading guilty and mailing a check tomorrow. Will sleep on it tonight.
    Pork-eating infidel and NRA Member

  4. #24
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    Dec 2008
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    Gouldsboro, Pennsylvania
    (Wayne County)
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    Quote Originally Posted by HarmonyHermit View Post
    He fined you because he knows that as a PA resident you will pay the fine. They gotta justify their jobs and make money for the PGC. The out of state folks would just trashcan the fine and laugh all the way back to NY/NJ.
    No. That's only probably partially true. It is realistic to expect out of towners to blow off a citation. But it is also realistic for the WCOto see that the OP was a local, which in conjunction with his knowledge of firearms laws as it pertains to surpressors and binary triggers, should be reasonably familiar with PGC range rules. Was the WCO being overzealous? Perhaps. Maybe Jo Bob Sixpack and his squirrely shotgun shooting clays at the listol range might not know SGL range regs, but it is reasonable to expect someone who can quote NFA to you to know them and follow them.

    Is it discretionary and subjective? Sure is. but I remind my two daughters that I know how smart they are and what they were taught and who taught it to them. They get far less leeway in screwing up than I give the rest of their moronic cohort. As elder daughter explained to a friend just last week about the topic, "Yeah. My dad's response would be 'Well, he's not my kid'."

    There may be hope for her yet!
    "How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessnes."

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandcut View Post
    But it is also realistic for the WCOto see that the OP was a local, which in conjunction with his knowledge of firearms laws as it pertains to surpressors and binary triggers, should be reasonably familiar with PGC range rules. Was the WCO being overzealous? Perhaps. Maybe Jo Bob Sixpack and his squirrely shotgun shooting clays at the listol range might not know SGL range regs, but it is reasonable to expect someone who can quote NFA to you to know them and follow them.
    Good point; one I didn't consider from the WCO's perspective. Well, like I said before - mea culpa. This one is truly on me, and I'll freely admit that. Trust me when I say I've been beating myself up over it the last couple of weeks because I really do try to abide by the laws of the land (even if I don't agree with some of them) to the best of my abilities.
    Pork-eating infidel and NRA Member

  6. #26
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    Jan 2007
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    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    Take that citation and have it enlarged and make 11x17 photocopies.
    Use them as targets from here on out.
    PAFOA GROUP SHOOT & BACON FEST! - was yesterday! June 15th - Click for info!

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    Quote Originally Posted by amstel78 View Post
    Good point; one I didn't consider from the WCO's perspective. Well, like I said before - mea culpa. This one is truly on me, and I'll freely admit that. Trust me when I say I've been beating myself up over it the last couple of weeks because I really do try to abide by the laws of the land (even if I don't agree with some of them) to the best of my abilities.
    I can understand that. I got a speeding ticket once in Montana (for going 36 mph in a 25 mph zone with the only speed limit sign hidden behind a tree. I went in to the office just to pay the fine until it came time to sign and it said "By signing this you are pleading guilty to the misdemeanor offense......" It turns out that everything in Montana is a misdemeanor, speeding tickets, fishing violations like being 1" too short, etc.
    "How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessnes."

  8. #28
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    Luzerne County, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    In my opinion, the WCO was being nit picky. Unless you just want to pay $200, I'd take a hearing with the local magistrate. Explain what you were doing and see what happens. You might get lucky and have the charge dismissed. You can't be found more guilty be taking the hearing.

    Yes, the law says you cannot shoot at anything other than a paper target on the backer, but sheesh.....that's really being anal. Unless he saw you shooting the target frame or something along those lines.

  9. #29
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    Montco, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    Take that citation and have it enlarged and make 11x17 photocopies.
    Use them as targets from here on out.
    FANTASTIC.

  10. #30
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    Jun 2011
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    Default Re: Question regarding PGC summary citation issued at SGL 183

    Thanks for everyone's input. I've decided to plead out and pay the fine. There's no guaranteed positive outcome if I try my case in front of a judge, but I will surely lose an entire day of work. My time is far more valuable.

    Lesson learned for sure. And yes, I do have access to a private range, but it's really only good for pistols which is why I go to the public SGL most times.

    Thanks again to all. Hope everyone here has a great day.

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