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  1. #31
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Meh , all copper alloy bullets like the Barnes X have proven very accurate and deadly effective,
    I don't speak English , I talk American!

  2. #32
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jcourson View Post
    Key points that I read back when I lived in California from the various studies used to push for the initial ban (AB821 - 2008):

    UC Davis turkey vulture and golden eagle studies
    Failed to verify the number of kills that were assumed to have occurred in the study areas

    Incorrectly assumed, without justification, that the hunting intensity of their small study areas was proportional to county-wide hunting intensity

    Failed to recognize existing ammunition bans in Tejon Ranch study area and thereby falsely categorized post-lead ammo ban data as pre-lead ammo ban data
    Actual hunter-take data for the study sites is significantly different from the assumed hunting intensity

    “High hunting intensity" site had the greatest blood lead levels for turkey vultures, even though only one pig was actually taken

    "Medium hunting intensity" site had much lower blood lead levels, yet it had fourteen times the amount of hunter killed pigs

    Blood lead data does not correlate with actual number of pigs killed



    UC Santa Cruz lead isotopic ratio studies
    Assumes without justification that the lead isotopic ratio range of leaded paint available in the Condor Range is limited to the isotopic ratios found on a single fire tower

    Ignores the fact that lead in paint has a very broad isotopic ratio range that completely overlaps the isotopic ratio range of lead from ammunition

    Neglects to report that their own published research reports a wide isotopic range for lead in paint in California homes and on an abandoned military base



    Hunt, et al. bullet fragmentation studies
    Misleads reader to believe that the carcasses and gut piles examined were obtained from hunters in the field

    The authors, rather than hunters in the field, shot the deer from which the carcasses and gut piles used in this study were obtained

    Bullets tested in this study were chosen by the authors, not by hunters in the field

    The bullets tested in this study were chosen after the authors searched for several years for the most fragmenting bullets
    Authors ignore their own early data that showed that commonly used hunting bullets fragmented very little

    Exaggeration of X-rays by alteration of contrast and brightness

    Exaggeration of X-rays by conversion of radiographs from negative to positive image



    Attachment 118936
    Condors eating lead paint chips from an abandoned tower, coutesy of the National Park Service




    I can't currently find a source for #3. I may have gotten it confused with them eating paint chips.




    Attachment 118937

    And just for funsies, a graph showing the tiny increase in condor lead levels after the 2008 lead hunting ban in their range.
    Links would be helpful to follow up and read the supporting literature to see what was poorly performed studies and what wasn't. But you definitely piqued my interest. Especially with the birds eating the lead flashing. I would have bet a nickel that that was some made up stuff. But truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. If true, I have no probkem admitting that I was wrong. But I can't find anything to support or refute it. So, a link would be helpful.
    Sed ego sum homo indomitus

  3. #33
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandcut View Post
    Links would be helpful to follow up and read the supporting literature to see what was poorly performed studies and what wasn't. But you definitely piqued my interest. Especially with the birds eating the lead flashing. I would have bet a nickel that that was some made up stuff. But truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. If true, I have no probkem admitting that I was wrong. But I can't find anything to support or refute it. So, a link would be helpful.
    These were the people primarily responsible for the lead ban (https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...d_petition.pdf) their initial petition had the foregone conclusion that the lead poisonings in condors came from ammo and directly referenced the CDFG commissioned UC Davis study.

    It has been a long time since I read any of the research, a quit bit of google fu brought up a bit of it though. (I know, I brought it up, it is my responsibility to show proof )

    UC Davis study can be found here:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0015350

    Hunt, et al can be found here:
    https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...et-al-2006.pdf

    Bullet fragmentation and lead deposition
    in white-tailed deer and domestic sheep
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/56a...83fb2bd822.pdf

    Specifically stated that Hunt et al only used 7 mm lead bullets compared to a "bullet of identical mass"

    Fry and Maurer 2003 (cited in the petition) however, also notes that there have been absolutely no records of condor feeding on gut piles of deer or pigs, one of the primary arguments that they tried to use (the remaining being waterfowl - also not a normal food source for condors - and varmit hunting).
    Last edited by jcourson; June 24th, 2019 at 07:22 PM.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jcourson View Post
    These were the people primarily responsible for the lead ban (https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...d_petition.pdf) their initial petition had the foregone conclusion that the lead poisonings in condors came from ammo and directly referenced the CDFG commissioned UC Davis study.

    It has been a long time since I read any of the research, a quit bit of google fu brought up a bit of it though. (I know, I brought it up, it is my responsibility to show proof )

    UC Davis study can be found here:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0015350

    Hunt, et al can be found here:
    https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...et-al-2006.pdf

    Bullet fragmentation and lead deposition
    in white-tailed deer and domestic sheep
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/56a...83fb2bd822.pdf

    Specifically stated that Hunt et al only used 7 mm lead bullets compared to a "bullet of identical mass"

    Fry and Maurer 2003 (cited in the petition) however, also notes that there have been absolutely no records of condor feeding on gut piles of deer or pigs, one of the primary arguments that they tried to use (the remaining being waterfowl - also not a normal food source for condors - and varmit hunting).
    Thanks. I'll dig through it one night this week.
    Sed ego sum homo indomitus

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