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  1. #21
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    I’ll have the lead, lead, lead, lead, lead and spam. Please.
    The Gun is the Badge of a Free Man

  2. #22
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    I was channeling my inner raptor.
    The Gun is the Badge of a Free Man

  3. #23
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Science behind it? It takes time and volume to accumulate levels of lead sufficient to present systemic problems.

    Hunters retrieve the game they shoot. Game that gets away and dies is a low percentage.

    I have retrieved every deer I shot, and the bullet exited every time. (There are a dozen antlers on the walls of the room I am writing this in, and more in the garage).

    Game normally acquired by shotgun is already covered with required steel shot.

    Shoot a small game with a .22 and it gets away to be eaten by foragers is a low number. To assume an animal is too dumb to reject an inedible object may be a stretch.

    If a bullet is swallowed, trace amounts will be digested as it passes. These animals do not ingest lead every time they eat. It is very occasional.

    I do not believe it is based on science. It's one more brain-washing of the general public.
    Legislating to prevent people's acts is fantasy

  4. #24
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by JenniferG View Post
    You've got the whole idea wrong. This act by California has nothing to do with wildlife or the environment. Most legislators in California have never stepped in the woods in their life. The closest most of them have come to wildlife are the bath houses in San Francisco. This act was for the elimination of hunting and hunters. Ammo manufacturers, firearms manufacturers and retailers tire of having to bend to the excessive needs of California. It's just not the firearm and hunting businesses that have cut back their bowing to these ridiculous California legislators many industries refuse to make products especially for the California market. Pretty soon they're going to have shoot their piss like wine out of biodegradable squirt guns.
    There used to be California compliant cars. Had extra special emissions systems. Now CA has Proposition 65 with labels on everything, that it may cause cancer. (I've seen signs in hotel lobbies with the warning that staying in this accommodation may cause cancer.)

    People are going to get tired of this nonsense. They won't want to put up with the extra expense, and will stop selling there.
    Wheaties aren't made out of the same stuff today as they were 40 years ago.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    1) The "study" that was used to initiate this legislation has been de-bunked many times over.
    2) The California condor has a fairly limited range. Hunting lead has been banned within that range for several years now, with no improvement for the condors.
    3) Condor's have been autopsied with lead still in their stomach....with the roofing tar still stuck to it. The stupid birds are eating roof flashing.
    4) No, monolithic bullets do not work better than lead. They are lighter for caliber bullets. They have a lower sectional density and worse ballistic coefficient.

    5) (The only portion that made a but of sense) Unless the law has another phase that I didn't care about at the time since the government was happily moving my ass out of there, the law has a provision for calibers that do no have a non-lead counterpart (ie .22, various non-traditional rounds) being allowed to continue using lead bullets until such time as non-lead options were commerically available.


    Edit: Cannot readily find a source for #3. I may have gotten it confused with them eating lead paint chips.
    Last edited by jcourson; June 20th, 2019 at 01:49 PM.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jcourson View Post
    1) The "study" that was used to initiate this legislation has been de-bunked many times over.
    2) The California condor has a fairly limited range. Hunting lead has been banned within that range for several years now, with no improvement for the condors.
    3) Condor's have been autopsied with lead still in their stomach....with the roofing tar still stuck to it. The stupid birds are eating roof flashing.
    4) No, monolithic bullets do not work better than lead. They are lighter for caliber bullets. They have a lower sectional density and worse ballistic coefficient.

    5) (The only portion that made a but of sense) Unless the law has another phase that I didn't care about at the time since the government was happily moving my ass out of there, the law has a provision for calibers that do no have a non-lead counterpart (ie .22, various non-traditional rounds) being allowed to continue using lead bullets until such time as non-lead options were commerically available.
    The ban isn't just for condor, but for all raptors that scavenge (which is pretty much all raptors).

    And please cite your source for #1 and 3. That sounds like shit someone just made up.
    "How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessnes."

  7. #27
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Everything Ca. touches turns to shit but they got this banning lead bullet stuff all together.
    Yeah, right. I totally trust their science.
    Crusader's local #556 South Central Asia chapter

  8. #28
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by streaker69 View Post
    Do you have a rough estimate to the number of birds that are killed over the past 50 years due to the ingestion of lead pellets vs the number of birds that have been killed by environmentally friendly windmills in the past 20 years?

    I don't believe for an instant that this push is actually about saving wildlife, it's just more hassle for hunters, and it's no secret that if CA had their way no one would be allowed to hunt there.
    A disclaimer; When I bash a state etc I am not referencing the good normal American people as Archie Bunker would say. That goes for the states intuitions etc as well. I am talking about Places like Frisco and other cities that are hard core leftists or socialists. I didn't want to insult the good people of CA.


    You stole my thunder reply #7 suggesting DU rounds be used instead of lead! Really, I am sure most would agree there is no real substitute for lead bullets. Even DU alloy that is currently employed as cannon rounds isn't a substitute. It's too heavy and too hard, unless coated with a special plastic it ruins a gun barrel. When it's machined on a lathe (or when the projectile hits a steel target) the stuff burns with an eerie green flame. Plus the smoke is radioactive! And due to its hardness etc its difficult to machine and produce..... (just some DU trivia to lighten the mood).

    (a paragraphed format as per a member/friend request.)

    Getting back on topic, In my opinion, judging by the crazy strict environmental laws enacted by CA, including other legislative and Judicial rulings etc the state seems like foreign country, not a state of the USA. I am sure there are a lot of good people in CA, but the state's Government is fully out of touch with reality. There is a reason I am concerned with CA's business. That reason is this; when something is mandated for CA only, especially an environmentally orientated 'something', a lot of times it somehow migrates right across state lines until it arrives at my states legislature. When that happens some of CA's restrictive laws influence law making in my state. I doubt if the lead ban will ever be lifted. I guess the best we can hope for is that technology gives us a good lead substitute.
    Last edited by ProSee4; June 8th, 2019 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Grammar etc.
    “I don't believe in empirical science. I only believe in a priori truth.” ~ Kurt Gödel

  9. #29
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Most of my bird hunting has been done in Delaware. No lead shot allowed. I have no problem with the restriction.
    They call me "Simple Jack".

  10. #30
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    Default Re: California Becomes the First State to Enact Total Lead Bullet Hunting Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandcut View Post
    The ban isn't just for condor, but for all raptors that scavenge (which is pretty much all raptors).

    And please cite your source for #1 and 3. That sounds like shit someone just made up.
    Key points that I read back when I lived in California from the various studies used to push for the initial ban (AB821 - 2008):

    UC Davis turkey vulture and golden eagle studies
    Failed to verify the number of kills that were assumed to have occurred in the study areas

    Incorrectly assumed, without justification, that the hunting intensity of their small study areas was proportional to county-wide hunting intensity

    Failed to recognize existing ammunition bans in Tejon Ranch study area and thereby falsely categorized post-lead ammo ban data as pre-lead ammo ban data
    Actual hunter-take data for the study sites is significantly different from the assumed hunting intensity

    “High hunting intensity" site had the greatest blood lead levels for turkey vultures, even though only one pig was actually taken

    "Medium hunting intensity" site had much lower blood lead levels, yet it had fourteen times the amount of hunter killed pigs

    Blood lead data does not correlate with actual number of pigs killed



    UC Santa Cruz lead isotopic ratio studies
    Assumes without justification that the lead isotopic ratio range of leaded paint available in the Condor Range is limited to the isotopic ratios found on a single fire tower

    Ignores the fact that lead in paint has a very broad isotopic ratio range that completely overlaps the isotopic ratio range of lead from ammunition

    Neglects to report that their own published research reports a wide isotopic range for lead in paint in California homes and on an abandoned military base



    Hunt, et al. bullet fragmentation studies
    Misleads reader to believe that the carcasses and gut piles examined were obtained from hunters in the field

    The authors, rather than hunters in the field, shot the deer from which the carcasses and gut piles used in this study were obtained

    Bullets tested in this study were chosen by the authors, not by hunters in the field

    The bullets tested in this study were chosen after the authors searched for several years for the most fragmenting bullets
    Authors ignore their own early data that showed that commonly used hunting bullets fragmented very little

    Exaggeration of X-rays by alteration of contrast and brightness

    Exaggeration of X-rays by conversion of radiographs from negative to positive image



    Condor.jpg
    Condors eating lead paint chips from an abandoned tower, coutesy of the National Park Service




    I can't currently find a source for #3. I may have gotten it confused with them eating paint chips.




    Condor Graph.jpg

    And just for funsies, a graph showing the tiny increase in condor lead levels after the 2008 lead hunting ban in their range.
    Last edited by jcourson; June 20th, 2019 at 01:45 PM.

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