Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24
  1. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    The cold, dark, void, Pennsylvania
    (Clearfield County)
    Posts
    2,865
    Rep Power
    21474845

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    You must not be keeping up with things in Philly.
    They still require fingerprints?
    NOBODY NEEDS ASSAULT SPEECH

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Waynesboro, Pennsylvania
    (Franklin County)
    Posts
    2,981
    Rep Power
    21474847

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    "Suspicious activity", "Disturbing the peace", "We received a complaint", "When someone calls we have to investigate", etc.
    No doubt this is a fantastic ruling, BUT, does it go far enough when any of the above could be fabricated reasons to stop and investigate.
    The Hostler

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Pop: Born in Reading Me: FXBG, VA, Virginia
    Posts
    47
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinHEMI View Post
    Unless I'm missing something, this is a PA supreme Court ruling, you know, the 7-2 Democrat court, and thus, the end of the road.

    Big win.
    I should have Googled first! From Wikipdeia:

    Federal appellate review of state supreme court rulings on federal matters may be sought by way of a petition for writ of certiorari to the Supreme Court of the United States.
    As noted above, the U.S. Supreme Court may hear appeals from state supreme courts only if there is a question of law under the United States Constitution (which includes issues arising from federal treaties, statutes, or regulations), and those appeals are heard at the Court's sole discretion (that is, only if the Court grants a petition for writ of certiorari).
    So it would appear to depend on the State at this point, and whether they think they can make their case that this should be a Constitutional issue.

    TFred

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
    (Franklin County)
    Age
    48
    Posts
    11,148
    Rep Power
    21474860

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by sota View Post
    I'd still like to hear some professional opinions on the whole state-of-emergency thing affecting out of state licenses for carry.
    What specifically are you asking? The SOE triggers a requirement to be licensed for ANY type of carry (on public streets or property). That law, like all the others, applies to residents and non-residents alike.
    Attention NRA Life and voting members - LPRGCFRANK running for NRA board of directors

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    7,570
    Rep Power
    21474853

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    In a "get a gun off the street, worry about the legality later" Modus operundi , the theory is if the gun is illegal, no judge is going to order it returned, so work with the system...lose the case, and get it off the street.

    A few years ago (I posted about this) we were at a party up the street and a Philly police officer was in attendance. He flat out told me my Bucks County pistol permit wouldn't mean a thing in Philly.

    I sure hope admin has seen to it that its officers have been better informed by now.
    Legislating to prevent people's acts is fantasy

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
    (Franklin County)
    Age
    48
    Posts
    11,148
    Rep Power
    21474860

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bang View Post
    In a "get a gun off the street, worry about the legality later" Modus operundi , the theory is if the gun is illegal, no judge is going to order it returned, so work with the system...lose the case, and get it off the street.

    A few years ago (I posted about this) we were at a party up the street and a Philly police officer was in attendance. He flat out told me my Bucks County pistol permit wouldn't mean a thing in Philly.

    I sure hope admin has seen to it that its officers have been better informed by now.
    Even if it IS legal, the bill for legal action to force its return will far exceed the value of the gun itself.

    Hardly "justice".
    Attention NRA Life and voting members - LPRGCFRANK running for NRA board of directors

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Oakland Mills, Pennsylvania
    (Juniata County)
    Posts
    3,177
    Rep Power
    21474846

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    Posts from two other threads which were closed on the topic but I think bring up good points:

    https://www.mcall.com/news/pennsylva...e6e-story.html

    "The court ruled a police officer’s knowledge that a person is carrying a gun no longer constitutes reasonable suspicion to detain and investigate whether they’re licensed to do so.

    The rule that allowed Pennsylvania police to do so “subverts the fundamental protections of the Fourth Amendment,” the court said. It noted Pennsylvania issues hundreds of thousands of licenses to carry firearms every year."


    Majority Opinion Written by Justice Wecht - Joined by Saylor, Todd & Donohue:
    http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinio...2564400534.pdf

    Conclusion: We accordingly overrule Robinson and those decisions of our Superior Court that have reaffirmed and applied its holding.
    Hicks sought allowance of appeal in this Court, which we granted in order to consider whether the Superior Court’s continued application of the Robinson rule comports with the requirements of the Fourth Amendment.(4)

    Footnote (4) & (5)

    (4) Adopting Hicks’ phrasing of the question, we granted allowance of appeal to determine:
    Whether the Superior Court’s bright line rule holding that possession of a concealed firearm in public is sufficient to create reasonable suspicion is a matter of such substantial public importance as to require prompt and definitive resolution by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court?
    Commonwealth v. Hicks, 172 A.3d 583 (Pa. 2017) (per curiam).

    (5)Hicks also invokes his constitutional right to keep and bear arms, guaranteed under the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, Section 21 of the Pennsylvania Constitution. See U.S. CONST. amend. II (“A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”); PA. CONST. art. I, 21 (“The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”).

    Although the right to keep and bear arms serves as an important conceptual backdrop to numerous legal issues surrounding firearms and the enforcement of the criminal law, our analysis will not focus upon the contours of that right. The issue presented is one of law enforcement practice, and the constitutional right at issue is the freedom from unreasonable, warrantless seizure of the person for purposes of criminal investigation. As such, this case is governed by the Fourth Amendment’s Terry doctrine, not by the right to keep and bear arms.
    A license to carry a firearm further authorizes an individual to carry a firearm openly or concealed within the City of Philadelphia. 18 Pa.C.S. 6108.(6) Accordingly, “[i]n all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms.” Commonwealth v. Hawkins, 692 A.2d 1068, 1071 n.4 (Pa. 1997) (plurality). Stated otherwise, an individual licensed to carry a firearm may do so in public, openly or concealed, within a vehicle or without, throughout every municipality in Pennsylvania.
    Crime and violence are ever-present threats in society, and it can be tempting to look to the government to provide protection from “dangerous” people with constant vigilance. However, the protections of the Fourth Amendment remain an essential bulwark against the overreaches and abuses of governmental authority over all individuals. Notwithstanding the dangers posed by the few, we must remain wary of the diminution of the core liberties that define our republic, even when the curtailment of individual liberty appears to serve an interest as paramount as public safety.

    Concurring - Justice Baer:
    http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinio...2564402464.pdf

    Concurring - Justice Dougherty (Joined By MUNDY):
    http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinio...2564402892.pdf

    http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=348244


    *************************************************
    **************************************************

    PA Supreme Court: Unconstitutional to ‘Stop-and-Frisk’ For Firearms

    HARRISBURG, PA -- The Pennsylvania State Supreme Court issued a significant 53-page majority opinion in the criminal appeal of Commonwealth v. Hicks. Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) and Firearms Policy Foundation (FPF) filed an important coalition amicus brief cited by the Court supporting Hicks in December of 2017, alongside Firearms Owners Against Crime (FOAC) and seven Members of Pennsylvania’s General Assembly. The Court’s decision, concurring opinions, and the FPC/FPF amicus brief can be viewed at www.firearmspolicy.org/legal.

    At issue was whether someone’s carrying of a firearm could be used as reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct, and thus justification for police to conduct a “stop-and-frisk” of the gun owner. The court ruled in Hicks that such searches and seizures, in the absence of other evidence are completely unlawful.

    The coalition’s brief, which was relied on heavily in the majority opinion, argued that the Pennsylvania and federal constitutions prohibit searches and seizures based on a suspicion of criminal activity due to carrying a firearm. According to the brief, “As protected by the Second and Fourth Amendments to the United States Constitution and [] the Pennsylvania Constitution . . . the mere open or conceal carrying of a firearm cannot establish reasonable articulable suspicion of criminal conduct, in the absence of additional indicia of unlawful activity.”

    The Court agreed, noting “that the government may not target and seize specific individuals without any particular suspicion of wrongdoing, then force them to prove that they are not committing crimes.”

    “Hicks’ position is supported by several amici curiae, including Members of the Pennsylvania General Assembly, Firearms Owners Against Crime, the Firearms Policy Coalition, and the Firearms Policy Foundation. Hicks’ amici argue that the Robinson rule is contrary to this Court’s precedent and to the general teachings of the Supreme Court of the United States’ Fourth Amendment jurisprudence. Amici further point to numerous decisions of the courts of other states and federal appellate courts that have addressed the specific question at issue here, and which have held that mere possession of a concealed firearm provides no basis for an investigative detention,” Supreme Court Justice Wecht wrote for the majority.

    FPC President and FPF Chairman Brandon Combs hailed the decision. “Stop-and-frisk practices that harass gun owners who carry for lawful purposes including self-defense, like the one at the core of this case, are unconstitutional, bad public policy, and dangerous,” explained Combs. “We are thrilled that the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania agreed with these fundamental principles and issued such an incredibly positive decision in favor of constitutional rights.”

    Kim Stolfer, president of FOAC, was also delighted with the ruling. “We are thrilled to have participated in this case. The Commonwealth’s position, that the ‘mere sight’ of a firearm, with no criminal act, ‘justifies’ arrest and detention at gunpoint, is constitutionally repugnant and unjustified. Today the Court rightly held as much.”

    Joshua Prince, author of the coalition’s brief, said that “the Court, in dismissing the Commonwealth’s position, declared that to permit investigative detention solely to determine whether someone is properly licensed is ‘ultimately untenable, because it would allow a manifestly unacceptable range of ordinary activity to, by itself, justify Terry stops.’”

    “This ruling rightly puts an end to abusive, non-justifiable searches of law-abiding gun owners, and it should be relished by all those who support the fundamental rights enshrined in our Constitution,” Prince concluded.

    Firearms Policy Coalition (www.firearmspolicy.org) is a 501(c)4 grassroots nonprofit organization. FPC’s mission is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, especially the fundamental, individual Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.

    Firearms Policy Foundation (www.firearmsfoundation.org) is a 501(c)3 grassroots nonprofit organization. FPF’s mission is to defend the Constitution of the United States and the People’s rights, privileges and immunities deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition, especially the inalienable, fundamental, and individual right to keep and bear arms.

    http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=348308
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    7,570
    Rep Power
    21474853

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    Now, can we apply that to official investigation into possession of a firearm based upon information the person being investigated has a LTCF.

    Example: patrol officer runs tag as about to stop a vehicle, learns name et cetera of vehicle's owner including licensed to carry.
    Legislating to prevent people's acts is fantasy

  9. #19
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Luzerne County, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
    Posts
    3,436
    Rep Power
    7613369

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    I talked about this briefly during a crime watch gun law/gun safety talk I did last night. I have also been talking about it with guys from my department. I think it's going to apply to the driver/motorist too. The mere fact that the driver voluntarily informs the officer or the LTCF info shows up when he runs their driver's info. It doesn't show up when you run the tag, because registered owner(s) may not be the driver.

    But walking on the street concealed would be no different that driving a vehicle. In both instances, the person would need a LTCF, but the ruling said the officer would need more than the mere fact that the person is carrying before checking for a LTCF.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    7,570
    Rep Power
    21474853

    Default Re: PA Supreme court decision on if open carry is suspicion of a crime.

    So what's left? Ascertaining they have a LTCF incidental to arrest?

    In the past, argument comparing licence to operate a motor vehicle with license to carry a firearm has been rejected on the basis driving is a privilege v carrying is a right (with the proper little piece of paper that makes it right).

    The ruling being discussed is a move in the right direction re 2nd amendment right. Detecting criminal possession of a firearm, not so much. And I don't mean lacking that little piece of paper that makes it right. I'm talking prohibited persons being disarmed.

    I wonder if and when rulings such as this will have an effect on TSA practices.
    Legislating to prevent people's acts is fantasy

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: June 28th, 2018, 07:10 AM
  2. Michigan open carry court decision
    By BenGlock in forum Open Carry
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: July 23rd, 2012, 04:38 PM
  3. Supreme Court Gun Decision Won't Affect NYC
    By buster2209 in forum National
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: July 2nd, 2010, 10:58 PM
  4. Yesterday's Supreme Court Decision
    By RuralTom in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: April 22nd, 2009, 09:15 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Local gun shops | Local shooting ranges | Philadelphia Shooting Ranges | Philadelphia Gun Shops | Pittsburgh Shooting Ranges | Pittsburgh Gun Shops