Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    lewistown, Pennsylvania
    (Mifflin County)
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    Quote Originally Posted by abner13 View Post
    So what shop was it?

    Gunfolks can be a persnickety bunch. Some customer feedback (peer pressure?) could help them change their ways.
    Yes !^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2019
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    Lansdale, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    It was The Bunker Gun Shop in Warminster, PA. I normally don't like to call out specific business names (esp. if they're small and more sensitive to bad rep), but in this case I gave them two chances to make things right and they failed me both times. The store wasn't even busy both of those times, so it's not like they had anything better to do at the time either. In the time it took them to explain to me why fixing the paperwork was a waste of time (to them), I could've been in and out right away. But they chose to speak down on me like I was being some paranoid idiot. And either they blatantly lied about how long they keep the sale records, or they really are breaking the law by destroying those records after 14 days. According to this site the retention period for PA firearm sales is 20 years. Huge difference...

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Allentown, Pennsylvania
    (Lehigh County)
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    Did they specify 9x19mm, or 9mm parabellum, or 9mm luger? Because .380 ACP is also known as 9mm kurz or 9mm short. Just putting down "9mm" on the form isn't technically wrong.
    Any mission, any conditions, any foe at any range.
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  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Southwest, Pennsylvania
    (Washington County)
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    For the record:

    6111(b)(1.1)(v) Unless it has been discovered pursuant to a criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check that the potential purchaser or transferee is prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms), no information on the application/record of sale provided pursuant to this subsection shall be retained as precluded by section 6111.4 (relating to registration of firearms) by the Pennsylvania State Police either through retention of the application/record of sale or by entering the information onto a computer, and, further, an application/record of sale received by the Pennsylvania State Police pursuant to this subsection shall be destroyed within 72 hours of the completion of the criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check.
    6111.4. Registration of firearms.

    Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

    (June 13, 1995, 1st Sp.Sess., P.L.1024, No.17, eff. 120 days)

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bucks, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    Quote Originally Posted by marinville View Post
    For the record:
    You're repeating a basic misunderstanding of 6111(b)(1.1)(v). That subsection only applies to long gun transfers when PICS is down. It says so in the words of the statute.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
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  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mohnton, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    The bunker doesn't use internet filling. Not the last time I was there anyway. That was last week.
    The Gun is the Badge of a Free Man

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Southwest, Pennsylvania
    (Washington County)
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    You're repeating a basic misunderstanding of 6111(b)(1.1)(v). That subsection only applies to long gun transfers when PICS is down. It says so in the words of the statute.
    It could be more clearly written, imo. If the intention was for subsections i-v to only apply to long arm transfers in the event of electronic failure, they should not be separate subsections, some of which have no mention of electronic failure or barrel length, and preceded by "all of the following shall apply" as if they were separate bullet points.

    As written, it only reads logically if you ignore the separate subsection designations.

    I still see no logic in mandating destruction of forms when used for long guns and yet allowing forms used for handgun transfers to be retained, when the mandated destruction is specifically spelled out as being necessary as to avoid a registry.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    West Alexander, Pennsylvania
    (Washington County)
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    I'm a firm believer in writing letters when something is wrong and I agree this needs to be corrected. I would write a letter to:

    Firearm Records Unit
    Pennsylvania State Police
    1800 Elmerton Avenue
    Harrisburg, PA 17110

    Explaining exactly what happened, mail it USPS Priority Mail so you have that tracking info of being delivered, with copies of the receipt of your purchase, and clearly explain what it should state on the form.

    Keep a copy of the letter for yourself with the USPS tracking info.

    Also, FFL's on this forum tend to stay off threads about other FFL's, it's just bad form, but in this case, I think it's necessary to give my 2 cents.
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  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Lansdale, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunsnwater View Post
    The bunker doesn't use internet filling. Not the last time I was there anyway. That was last week.
    You sure we're talking about the same FFL? I picked up 3 firearms from them in the past 8 or so months. The one related to this thread was picked up last Friday (17th). Every single time I've been there they had me fill out the ATF form only. The second half was done on a tablet/iPad that was in the salesman's hands (had me digitally sign it with my finger). If that's not digital I don't know what is.

    The other FFL I go to, Target World in Chalfont, definitely uses all paper only (ATF and PSP). Reason why I occasionally go to Bunker is because they're rarely busy and they'll have the paperwork done quicker. Well now I'm learning the hard way that faster isn't always better. I'll be sticking with Target World. Tanner's is also good in my experience, but further out of the way for me.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2019
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    Lansdale, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: FFL Screwed Up Paperwork

    Quote Originally Posted by WCMG View Post
    I'm a firm believer in writing letters when something is wrong and I agree this needs to be corrected. I would write a letter to:

    Firearm Records Unit
    Pennsylvania State Police
    1800 Elmerton Avenue
    Harrisburg, PA 17110

    Explaining exactly what happened, mail it USPS Priority Mail so you have that tracking info of being delivered, with copies of the receipt of your purchase, and clearly explain what it should state on the form.

    Keep a copy of the letter for yourself with the USPS tracking info.

    Also, FFL's on this forum tend to stay off threads about other FFL's, it's just bad form, but in this case, I think it's necessary to give my 2 cents.
    Thank you, WCMG. That might actually be cheaper than doing everything all over again through another FFL. On the other hand I'd honestly be shocked if they end up contacting me to confirm that the fixes were made once they've received that mail. In my experience gov't agencies don't reach out to you unless: A) you owe them money, or B) something is wrong. They rarely (if ever) contact you to confirm something was fixed. The tracking info will just tell me they got the mail, and that it was probably thrown onto a pile of other mail that's been backlogged for months. So I'm thinking I should just cough up the $40 to redo the transfer at another FFL just to have that extra peace of mind and get it over with. :-(

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