Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    It could take a long time. Plus, you have to wait for the right case that highlights the constitutional issues and makes the laws less defensible.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qtrborecrazy View Post
    How before these red flag laws wind up in front of the SCOTUS?
    I don't know, but will it matter?

    I assume PFA's have been upheld as constitutional.

    This isn't much different. Somebody says something which may or may not be a complete fabrication. Court shrugs and says issue the temporary order out of an abundance of caution (the children).
    You lose your guns, and need to hire a lawyer. Eventually maybe you get them back, maybe you don't.

    Seems to be a similar premise to me.....basically go get fucked.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    “These are individuals who are often exercising their first amendment rights online, who are protecting constitutionally protected speech online,” she said. “Maybe it was odious, maybe people didn’t like it but they were hit with the risk protection order because of it.”
    Sounds like Thought Crime to me. Now if the accused were saying stuff like "so-and-so needs killed" and went into detail, that's already a crime.


    I recall some Bloomberg mouthpiece telling Congress "We need to control gun owners" when asked why we "need" these laws. Yeah, big surprise there.

    Bloomberg loves to control things.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness 1864 View Post
    I am with you. These laws are bad. Some fixes help, but none eliminate the inherent abuse built right into them So, yes, using a Red Flag order as a basis to prosecute crimes that were discovered without warrant in the Red Flag confiscation raid should be non prosecutable, no matter how horrible. Period. No going back and using the info learned in a Red Flag raid to form the basis for a subsequent search warrant either. That would be a disincentive for police and prosecutors to use the Red Flag laws as a means to evade the 4th Amendment search laws.

    The penalties for false filings have to be severe and capable of being brought in a civil action because prosecutors will not waste their time on them. An aggrieved citizen might. The proposed PA law is very week. All costs, including attorney fees, of any proceeding found to have been without merit must be assessed on the applicant.

    The record of proceedings on all orders needs to be open to public inspection, otherwise there is no brake on the courts becoming kangaroo courts where applications are rubber stamped and no one can get to them to understand if Constitutional rights are being violated (just like our FISA courts, remember how we were told they could never be abused?) All courts issuing orders should have to keep statistics on their activities and report them publicly on a semi-annual basis so that citizens can easily keep track of how this exceptional set of procedures is being used and with what frequency. Access to the information should be made available without FOIA costs and fees.

    The standard for issuance of the initial order should be "clear and convincing". If a family member has a reason to fear something bad, they usually reach those conclusions with serious information and evidence. Preponderance of the evidence in a one sided hearing means a judge cannot refuse to issue an order unless he believes the applicant is bald faced lying. No way. If someone's civil rights are going to be cashiered, it ought to be based on more than a 50.1 to 49.9 odds. Normally a requirement for any injunctive relief is that person seeking it can show they have a good chance of prevailing at trial.

    Ex parte hearings should be disfavored and only allowed on a clear and convincing body of evidence that the threat of harm is real and imminent.

    Finally, no police applications at all. That is a truckhole. Despite the efforts to narrow the range of applicants (which the Democrats then expand with each new legislative session) allowing police to file them should be expressly prohibited. Anyone, even with no family relations, can give information to a police officer. A neighbor, a co-worker, a motor vehicles clerk that did not like your attitude, an co-worker, someone who didn't like you Maga hat and claims you were threatening. Anyone for almost any reason can start the Red Flag process with a police officer.
    Red flag laws should send a chill down the spine of every American. Today it is us, law abiding gun owners being persecuted. The day will come when they will expand this to include perhaps "hate speech", "pro-life people" "christians". We have a judicial system in place since our founding, you make a complaint in a court, present evidence, the accused responds and a jury decides. These laws take away all presumption of innocence, due process, evidence, etc. We should all be very alarmed at where this is going. Not good.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    The authorities and those given orders should prepare themselves to lose a few on every raid. A pretty steep price to enforce "shut up we don't like what you're saying'.
    Last edited by JenniferG; May 19th, 2019 at 06:56 AM.
    Corruption is the default behavior of government officials. JPC

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    The SCOTUS should hear a representative case, so the five unelected people who ultimately run this country can correct the situation.
    There are two kinds of guns. Those I have acquired, and those I hope to.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGRNPA View Post
    Red flag laws should send a chill down the spine of every American. Today it is us, law abiding gun owners being persecuted. The day will come when they will expand this to include perhaps "hate speech", "pro-life people" "christians". We have a judicial system in place since our founding, you make a complaint in a court, present evidence, the accused responds and a jury decides. These laws take away all presumption of innocence, due process, evidence, etc. We should all be very alarmed at where this is going. Not good.
    This is happening routinely in Great Britain right now -- as bad as anything I have seen in what most would still consider a "free" country. Germany too. New Zealand, in the process of a gun confiscation program, is sending out police questioning people about their political views, particularly on muslim immigration. Read what is happening in Canada and the enforcement of their hate speech laws. It is happening here in the USA in many school systems and at the university level.

    NY has serious legislative proposals requiring that an individual seeking to exercise 2nd Amendment rights first agree to a thorough search of emails and social media and internet search histories.

    Apparently our own Senator Casey is already introducing legislation 1st and 2nd Amendment throttling legislation.

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/d...ct-introduced/
    Last edited by Wilderness 1864; May 20th, 2019 at 10:08 PM.

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