Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 27 of 27
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Mobile RV Unit
    Posts
    843
    Rep Power
    21474841

    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    It could take a long time. Plus, you have to wait for the right case that highlights the constitutional issues and makes the laws less defensible.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Northern Tier, Pennsylvania
    (McKean County)
    Age
    51
    Posts
    7,490
    Rep Power
    21474856

    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qtrborecrazy View Post
    How before these red flag laws wind up in front of the SCOTUS?
    I don't know, but will it matter?

    I assume PFA's have been upheld as constitutional.

    This isn't much different. Somebody says something which may or may not be a complete fabrication. Court shrugs and says issue the temporary order out of an abundance of caution (the children).
    You lose your guns, and need to hire a lawyer. Eventually maybe you get them back, maybe you don't.

    Seems to be a similar premise to me.....basically go get fucked.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Yutopia, Pennsylvania
    (Westmoreland County)
    Posts
    3,488
    Rep Power
    9924301

    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    “These are individuals who are often exercising their first amendment rights online, who are protecting constitutionally protected speech online,” she said. “Maybe it was odious, maybe people didn’t like it but they were hit with the risk protection order because of it.”
    Sounds like Thought Crime to me. Now if the accused were saying stuff like "so-and-so needs killed" and went into detail, that's already a crime.


    I recall some Bloomberg mouthpiece telling Congress "We need to control gun owners" when asked why we "need" these laws. Yeah, big surprise there.

    Bloomberg loves to control things.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Elizabethville, Pennsylvania
    (Dauphin County)
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness 1864 View Post
    I am with you. These laws are bad. Some fixes help, but none eliminate the inherent abuse built right into them So, yes, using a Red Flag order as a basis to prosecute crimes that were discovered without warrant in the Red Flag confiscation raid should be non prosecutable, no matter how horrible. Period. No going back and using the info learned in a Red Flag raid to form the basis for a subsequent search warrant either. That would be a disincentive for police and prosecutors to use the Red Flag laws as a means to evade the 4th Amendment search laws.

    The penalties for false filings have to be severe and capable of being brought in a civil action because prosecutors will not waste their time on them. An aggrieved citizen might. The proposed PA law is very week. All costs, including attorney fees, of any proceeding found to have been without merit must be assessed on the applicant.

    The record of proceedings on all orders needs to be open to public inspection, otherwise there is no brake on the courts becoming kangaroo courts where applications are rubber stamped and no one can get to them to understand if Constitutional rights are being violated (just like our FISA courts, remember how we were told they could never be abused?) All courts issuing orders should have to keep statistics on their activities and report them publicly on a semi-annual basis so that citizens can easily keep track of how this exceptional set of procedures is being used and with what frequency. Access to the information should be made available without FOIA costs and fees.

    The standard for issuance of the initial order should be "clear and convincing". If a family member has a reason to fear something bad, they usually reach those conclusions with serious information and evidence. Preponderance of the evidence in a one sided hearing means a judge cannot refuse to issue an order unless he believes the applicant is bald faced lying. No way. If someone's civil rights are going to be cashiered, it ought to be based on more than a 50.1 to 49.9 odds. Normally a requirement for any injunctive relief is that person seeking it can show they have a good chance of prevailing at trial.

    Ex parte hearings should be disfavored and only allowed on a clear and convincing body of evidence that the threat of harm is real and imminent.

    Finally, no police applications at all. That is a truckhole. Despite the efforts to narrow the range of applicants (which the Democrats then expand with each new legislative session) allowing police to file them should be expressly prohibited. Anyone, even with no family relations, can give information to a police officer. A neighbor, a co-worker, a motor vehicles clerk that did not like your attitude, an co-worker, someone who didn't like you Maga hat and claims you were threatening. Anyone for almost any reason can start the Red Flag process with a police officer.
    Red flag laws should send a chill down the spine of every American. Today it is us, law abiding gun owners being persecuted. The day will come when they will expand this to include perhaps "hate speech", "pro-life people" "christians". We have a judicial system in place since our founding, you make a complaint in a court, present evidence, the accused responds and a jury decides. These laws take away all presumption of innocence, due process, evidence, etc. We should all be very alarmed at where this is going. Not good.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Ercildoun, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
    Posts
    3,537
    Rep Power
    21474846

    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    The authorities and those given orders should prepare themselves to lose a few on every raid. A pretty steep price to enforce "shut up we don't like what you're saying'.
    Last edited by JenniferG; May 19th, 2019 at 06:56 AM.
    The Communist Manifesto is now the Constitution of the democrat party

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    7,238
    Rep Power
    21474853

    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    The SCOTUS should hear a representative case, so the five unelected people who ultimately run this country can correct the situation.
    Legislating to prevent people's acts is fantasy

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Mobile RV Unit
    Posts
    843
    Rep Power
    21474841

    Default Re: Red Flag Laws at Work in Florida.

    Quote Originally Posted by PGRNPA View Post
    Red flag laws should send a chill down the spine of every American. Today it is us, law abiding gun owners being persecuted. The day will come when they will expand this to include perhaps "hate speech", "pro-life people" "christians". We have a judicial system in place since our founding, you make a complaint in a court, present evidence, the accused responds and a jury decides. These laws take away all presumption of innocence, due process, evidence, etc. We should all be very alarmed at where this is going. Not good.
    This is happening routinely in Great Britain right now -- as bad as anything I have seen in what most would still consider a "free" country. Germany too. New Zealand, in the process of a gun confiscation program, is sending out police questioning people about their political views, particularly on muslim immigration. Read what is happening in Canada and the enforcement of their hate speech laws. It is happening here in the USA in many school systems and at the university level.

    NY has serious legislative proposals requiring that an individual seeking to exercise 2nd Amendment rights first agree to a thorough search of emails and social media and internet search histories.

    Apparently our own Senator Casey is already introducing legislation 1st and 2nd Amendment throttling legislation.

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/d...ct-introduced/
    Last edited by Wilderness 1864; May 20th, 2019 at 10:08 PM.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Similar Threads

  1. RED FLAG LAWS EXPLAINED
    By middlefinger in forum National
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: March 7th, 2019, 09:38 PM
  2. Florida's new gun laws explained.
    By Hodgie in forum National
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: March 21st, 2018, 07:55 PM
  3. Florida Gun Laws
    By ChunkPa772 in forum Concealed & Open Carry
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: December 21st, 2015, 06:22 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Local gun shops | Local shooting ranges | Philadelphia Shooting Ranges | Philadelphia Gun Shops | Pittsburgh Shooting Ranges | Pittsburgh Gun Shops