Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    You are allowed to disagree, but it would be helpful if you provided facts and logic in support of that disagreement.
    It's hard to provid facts when there are not many if any current models to go by. I do stand by my previous posts and while I agree that this is a extremely rare occurrence since the facts and stats prove that I would still personally rather see trained security then armed teachers or at least a combination of both. When it comes to my children I don't cut corners and believe as tax payers we deserve better especially since this is such a polarized issue with the left. If they truly want safer schools and gave a shit about the kids they tote around as pawns it would be done plain and simple.

    In most schools I can see a complete lack of teacher support and participation due to the responsibility, and I do not believe it should be forced on anyone. In the end there would be people getting paid to stand there, but there are a lot of private companies that do that every day with even lower risk and a lot less at stake. I also see this as having a batter chance of being something that both sides might compromise on before arming the lunch lady and Librarian after they complete their basic NRA course.

    I do not believe we need Tier 1 operators from Delta force. Between retired LE many of which are still very young and want a easy side job and the amount of veterans who have returned I think we can fill the positions rather easily. It would be great if either option came to fruition and could be promoted like you said in the media, but you know as well as I do they would demonize and scrutinize it in the end which would just help to grow the lack of support for it.
    Last edited by Hodgie; March 21st, 2019 at 05:45 PM.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    Just as a matter of percentages in a cross-section, there should be enough willing members within a school cadre. The biggest problem would be the percentage who not only are unwilling to step out of the teacher role and become protectors in a real way, but are unwilling to teach beside armed teachers. it's always the head-up-asses who fuck things up. And tenure stops boards from saying, OK then, goodbye.
    There are two kinds of guns. Those I have acquired, and those I hope to.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Kahuna 19547 View Post
    Making it safer for everyone everyday.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    I had not seen the abc27 piece.
    My understanding of the act is there are armed school police officers and armed security guards. Municipalities may provide a permanently assigned police officer- a school resource officer.

    I like the idea of an armed uniformed presence combined with teachers retaining their 2A rights while on school grounds. Phil brings up a good point that armed uniformed personnel are likely to be targeted first.
    I guess in the same way any open carrier is likely to be targeted first. I'm used to working in that environment here and abroad. It's a common situation.

    At the school I subbed in, lots of the kids stopped me and asked where their regular guy was. They know him, they talk to him and let him in on what's happening around the school.
    It is very likely in the case of a disturbed student one of the kids will say something to him- that's an advantage for a scenario like Parkland. They also may interact with the kids through various presentations in the classroom. It's not just sitting around waiting for something to happen.

    Additionally, the armed private guys are required to meet certain standards before they are assigned and continue to renew those standards; firearm quals, training, Etc.
    I don't know what the companies charge the school but I can say that I'm certainly not getting rich doing it.

    I think the best approach is fangs in the open combined with fangs you can't see.
    Crusader's local #556 South Central Asia chapter

  5. #45
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    Quote Originally Posted by Hodgie View Post
    It's hard to provid facts when there are not many if any current models to go by. I do stand by my previous posts and while I agree that this is a extremely rare occurrence since the facts and stats prove that I would still personally rather see trained security then armed teachers or at least a combination of both. When it comes to my children I don't cut corners and believe as tax payers we deserve better especially since this is such a polarized issue with the left. If they truly want safer schools and gave a shit about the kids they tote around as pawns it would be done plain and simple.

    In most schools I can see a complete lack of teacher support and participation due to the responsibility, and I do not believe it should be forced on anyone. In the end there would be people getting paid to stand there, but there are a lot of private companies that do that every day with even lower risk and a lot less at stake. I also see this as having a batter chance of being something that both sides might compromise on before arming the lunch lady and Librarian after they complete their basic NRA course.

    I do not believe we need Tier 1 operators from Delta force. Between retired LE many of which are still very young and want a easy side job and the amount of veterans who have returned I think we can fill the positions rather easily. It would be great if either option came to fruition and could be promoted like you said in the media, but you know as well as I do they would demonize and scrutinize it in the end which would just help to grow the lack of support for it.
    OK, here are facts; there are over 98,000 K-12 schools in America. Over 98,000 of them will have zero school shooters this year. Paying for 300,000 armed security officers who will do literally nothing, 5 days a week, 9 months a year, is not something that I would impose on the taxpayers unless there are no other options. We have $22 trillion in Federal debt, we should be looking to reduce expenses, not increase them by hiring more govt employees.

    There are other options. It's why we have the 2nd Amendment (well, it's half the reason). Most of the PAFOA regulars are used to being the 1st responders in their own lives, and in their families' lives, so it's not a weird concept, it's not even 2nd best. We actually feel SAFER being our own 1st responders instead of relying on some other person to handle things for us, someone who may be yards or miles away.

    Further, a school with between 1-20 armed staff hidden among the entire staff & faculty is a much better deterrent than a school with 1 or 2 uniformed guys who are easy to track. Sometimes, like at Columbine, the shooters come in small groups, so if they come in at 2 or 3 entrances and start shooting, your uniformed guard is AT BEST able to deal with 1 of them before kids start dying. And when the murder cult of peace starts targeting schools with hit teams using AK's and bombs, 1 or 2 uniformed retired cops will be just a speedbump, whereas an unknown number of armed staff would thicken the fog of war to the point that the tangoes might be deterred.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
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  6. #46
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    OK, here are facts; there are over 98,000 K-12 schools in America. Over 98,000 of them will have zero school shooters this year. Paying for 300,000 armed security officers who will do literally nothing, 5 days a week, 9 months a year, is not something that I would impose on the taxpayers unless there are no other options. We have $22 trillion in Federal debt, we should be looking to reduce expenses, not increase them by hiring more govt employees.

    There are other options. It's why we have the 2nd Amendment (well, it's half the reason). Most of the PAFOA regulars are used to being the 1st responders in their own lives, and in their families' lives, so it's not a weird concept, it's not even 2nd best. We actually feel SAFER being our own 1st responders instead of relying on some other person to handle things for us, someone who may be yards or miles away.

    Further, a school with between 1-20 armed staff hidden among the entire staff & faculty is a much better deterrent than a school with 1 or 2 uniformed guys who are easy to track. Sometimes, like at Columbine, the shooters come in small groups, so if they come in at 2 or 3 entrances and start shooting, your uniformed guard is AT BEST able to deal with 1 of them before kids start dying. And when the murder cult of peace starts targeting schools with hit teams using AK's and bombs, 1 or 2 uniformed retired cops will be just a speedbump, whereas an unknown number of armed staff would thicken the fog of war to the point that the tangoes might be deterred.


    Yeah me too since that's how I was raised unfortunately the PVE school system will not allow me or any of the other self sufficient PAFOA regulars to stand guard over the front doors with our rifles or pistols.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    Quote Originally Posted by buxbandit View Post
    50 to 75 students and staff rushing the shooter while yelling crazy shit and throwing everything that's not nailed down sound like a decent strategy to me if you're unarmed.
    I would prefer to rush the shooter with a gun in hand...level the playing field.

    Getting rid of gun free zones is a damn good start.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    OK, here are facts; there are over 98,000 K-12 schools in America. Over 98,000 of them will have zero school shooters this year. Paying for 300,000 armed security officers who will do literally nothing, 5 days a week, 9 months a year, is not something that I would impose on the taxpayers unless there are no other options. We have $22 trillion in Federal debt, we should be looking to reduce expenses, not increase them by hiring more govt employees.

    There are other options. It's why we have the 2nd Amendment (well, it's half the reason). Most of the PAFOA regulars are used to being the 1st responders in their own lives, and in their families' lives, so it's not a weird concept, it's not even 2nd best. We actually feel SAFER being our own 1st responders instead of relying on some other person to handle things for us, someone who may be yards or miles away.

    Further, a school with between 1-20 armed staff hidden among the entire staff & faculty is a much better deterrent than a school with 1 or 2 uniformed guys who are easy to track. Sometimes, like at Columbine, the shooters come in small groups, so if they come in at 2 or 3 entrances and start shooting, your uniformed guard is AT BEST able to deal with 1 of them before kids start dying. And when the murder cult of peace starts targeting schools with hit teams using AK's and bombs, 1 or 2 uniformed retired cops will be just a speedbump, whereas an unknown number of armed staff would thicken the fog of war to the point that the tangoes might be deterred.
    Agreeing with you, and providing context.

    2 armed guards per school at $70k/yr would cost $13.8 BB. Yearly. Again and again. With no real changes to anything but providing a potentially reactive force.

    Why not take that $140k for one year and refit each building. Defined entrance with two doors in series, maglocks on doors, some bullet proof glass for the secretary that sits in the window between the two doors.

    If we wanted security, we would have it. When was the last time a kid died in a fire at a school? Because we realize it's a possibility - however remote, so we train the kids and build the buildings to slow the spread.

    So why not train the kids and adjust buildings to minimize spread during a magnificently remote occurance - just like we do with fires.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinR View Post
    Agreeing with you, and providing context.

    2 armed guards per school at $70k/yr would cost $13.8 BB. Yearly. Again and again. With no real changes to anything but providing a potentially reactive force.

    Why not take that $140k for one year and refit each building. Defined entrance with two doors in series, maglocks on doors, some bullet proof glass for the secretary that sits in the window between the two doors.

    If we wanted security, we would have it. When was the last time a kid died in a fire at a school? Because we realize it's a possibility - however remote, so we train the kids and build the buildings to slow the spread.

    So why not train the kids and adjust buildings to minimize spread during a magnificently remote occurance - just like we do with fires.
    Both my kids school have a set up like this, note sure if the secretary window is bullet proof but it’s looks thick as hell. they have done a good job with security without going nuts.

    There are no other ways into the school once class has started and all visitors have to be buzzed in, show ID before they let you through. Metal detectors would be the only upgrade to their system. I don’t think the elementary and intermediate school need them, they would be more useful in a middle or high school setting.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: School board learns a 20-year active shooter lesson??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunsnwater View Post
    5watt lasers in the eye ever been tried?
    Similar to my concepts of interim non-lethal methods.

    Concept is to use bright lights and scanning lasers to help blind assailants. Portable tactical lights so to speak. Also, at end of hallways and at intersections, permanent fixtures could be armed in emergencies. Strobing would prevent or defeat sunglasses or welding glasses and aid to disorient. Sound could also be used.

    Not bullet proof but could help (even after gun use is okey).
    It is you. You have all the weapons that you need. Now fight. --Sucker Punch

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