Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosinshooter762 View Post
    This should be bumped up after what happened in Virginia Beach. My understanding is that the killings occurred in a place where municipal employees were prohibited from carrying for defense. Though uncommon, it seems a mass shooting spree can happen anywhere, at anytime, for any reason. This is why it is important to defend the right of all to carry for such defense. This is what firearm preemption does in most cases. Municipal employees should not be excluded from such protection as was the case in Virginia Beach.
    Agree, but as stated above, its very risky now with the Leftists on the State Supreme court.

    Never ask a question if you are not ready for the answers.
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  2. #12
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by ideaman View Post
    If the employees, in mass, complain they fear for their safety due to the increasing shootings. The Municipal can relieve their fear by hiring an armed guard. Thereby no need for employees to carry at work.
    Except for that armed guard. I’ve had several jobs in my life. I have always been the same person. Jobs don’t change people. I guess it’s why we call first responders heroes when they actually do their job. On some level we are surprised they actually did it.
    The Gun is the Badge of a Free Man

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosinshooter762 View Post
    This should be bumped up after what happened in Virginia Beach. My understanding is that the killings occurred in a place where municipal employees were prohibited from carrying for defense. Though uncommon, it seems a mass shooting spree can happen anywhere, at anytime, for any reason. This is why it is important to defend the right of all to carry for such defense. This is what firearm preemption does in most cases. Municipal employees should not be excluded from such protection as was the case in Virginia Beach.
    I believe the shooter acquired and carried his firearms legally. His argument could have been that he carried at work for his own self defense. Until he goes postal and shoots the place up. Now all of the other employees want to be able to carry for their self defense. Until one of them go postal. That firefight would be epic. And probably something the employer would want to avoid. I don’t think there is a simple answer.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    I believe the shooter acquired and carried his firearms legally. His argument could have been that he carried at work for his own self defense. Until he goes postal and shoots the place up. Now all of the other employees want to be able to carry for their self defense. Until one of them go postal. That firefight would be epic. And probably something the employer would want to avoid. I don’t think there is a simple answer.
    Good example. Very relevant, what with all the "epic firefights" happening at police departments all over the country.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter Patriot View Post
    I am aware that in P private employers may restrict the rights of employees to carry while working.

    However can public employers such as towns and counties pass the same restriction?

    "§ 6120. Limitation on the regulation of firearms and ammunition.

    (a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership,possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition componentswhen carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth."

    Would "in any manner" include employment policies? It seems that in an area where anyone may carry into a township building, that the town shouldn't be able to restrict employees from doing so. I searched but could not find any caselaw regarding this.

    Does anyone know of any case law regarding this matter?

    I am not a lawyer so this is my best lay judgement. The words “in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition” seem to preclude any PA government entity for restricting the right to possess a firearm on the job and work premises. Why would condition of employment be exempt from the “in any manner stipulation?” Under PA law there a very few places you cannot legally carry a gun including private property that is posted since such signage does not have the force of law. A private employer can set any legal condition of employment it chooses, but county, municipal, etc governments seem to be restricted from. stopping possession of a firearm. I sure would like to know the correct answer to the OP’s question.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    I had to check to make sure this was not the ‘Moms Demand Action’ or ‘Everytown for Gun Safety’ forums. Every argument that has been made in favor of the disarmament of municipal employees at work is just as applicable against why the public in general shouldn’t carry protection. Or why teachers shouldn’t carry protection. I thought that experience has shown that the arguments against the public being able to legally carry firearms do not pan out. This is an example of the government regulating upon a preempted activity, and dare I say questioning and infringing upon a constitutional right.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    Pretty sure this has already been through the courts (last year or so?). School bus driver or maintenance employee got fired. The court didn't go with the " on school grounds" issue but went with the "terms of employment" issue. LTCF or Section 6120 didn't even come into play.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    Pretty sure this has already been through the courts (last year or so?). School bus driver or maintenance employee got fired. The court didn't go with the " on school grounds" issue but went with the "terms of employment" issue. LTCF or Section 6120 didn't even come into play.
    Was that person actually employed by a "county, municipality, or township"?

    Around here, busing is done by private contractors, who would not be bound by preemption even if it did extend to employment scenarios, and school districts themselves are not bound by preemption either, though I think they should be. Any entity that can levy taxes is certainly "government".

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    The latest change to Section 6109, as an add-on, limits any "Commonwealth agency" from regulating firearms. Is a school district a commonwealth agency? And, are terms of employment separate from regulating firearms?

    They may well be a commonwealth agency since they're created under the power of the state, but terms of employment and regulating anything applicable to all are two separate things.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Question on County or Municipal Employee Carry Rights

    Our courts would almost certainly allow any employer to ban guns on their own property, but not allow a govt entity to criminalize it.

    I wrote a version of this here back in 2006, when some here argued that no municipality could ban guns on city property. They pushed it and we got the Erie decision, which overturned a summary criminal conviction for possession in a city park, but added (sua sponte) a suggestion that the city AS PROPERTY OWNER might have the same rights as any other property owner to regulate who could use their property and in what manner, clearly telling them to just make a "policy" against guns.

    So far, I've been right as to what the courts would say. Doesn't mean I agree with them, just that it was predictable to anyone who understands how things work, and what words mean.

    "Regulate" is not what you do when you tell guests in your home "no smoking". "Regulate" is using govt power to enforce something using the criminal laws, directly or indirectly (regulations usually are ultimately enforced by criminal sanctions). In this case it means that a govt entity can tell you "no guns in our house", ask you to leave, and use the trespassing laws if you refuse. But they can't make possession of guns on their property a summary offense, without more, such as that refusal to leave, or threats.

    There are good arguments the other way. Maybe your boss at ACME Products can restrict your speech, maybe a football team can fire an employee for offensive speech elsewhere, but the 1st Amendment likely restricts what a government employer can do to employees (although they seem to have no trouble firing employees for offensive Facebook postings). Maybe your govt employer has less rights in controlling its property if they are affecting an enumerated civil right, like speech or arms. But I doubt you'll get that ruling in our state courts.
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