Concealed or open carrying of guns at issue in city case

[WhiteFeather]

Some of you may find this a interesting read.

Also IF you want to increase your firearm rights in PA please consider doing your part by contacting ALL 50 PA senators and ask them to support HB 1845.

Its great to quote PA law, and say they can’t legally do this or that, how about helping get a law on the books that says they can’t do this to your firearm rights, thanks to all that already did their part to help get pass HB 1845.

Moderators if some else already posted this article please delete this one, the search engine can't find text in articles contained in links only that posted on PAFOA.
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaind...l=2&thispage=1

Concealed or open carrying of guns at issue in city case

Greg Llewellyn, his girlfriend and four friends were sipping hot tea outside a West Side coffee shop on a recent August night when a pair of Cleveland police officers approached with guns drawn.

Get on the ground, an officer ordered, forcing the surprised group to set aside their drinks and hit the sidewalk belly-down. An officer began searching one of Llewellyn's friends before abruptly ending the suspense and demanding to know who had the gun.

"I am the one who has the weapon," the 26-year-old Llewellyn answered. The butt of a black, holstered and loaded CZ-52 pistol -- a Czech-made gun -- was visible tucked behind him in his belt.

The officers arrested him for carrying a concealed weapon. Llewellyn protested, saying he was not trying to hide the gun, because Ohio law allowed him to openly carry it in public.

The officers didn't buy his argument and sent Llewellyn to jail and confiscated his rare pistol.

Unless he was truly trying to hide the gun, the law appears to be on Llewellyn's side.

For over a year now, while most attention has focused on who can get a concealed-carry permit, Ohio law has allowed most adults to walk down the street visibly armed -- no permit needed, no training required and no need to register the gun.

"There is no state or federal law that says you cannot carry openly, except in a few specific places," said Jeff Garvas, of Ohioans for Concealed Carry. "So walking down the street with a gun is legal."

That's a dangerous scenario that conjures up memories of Wild West movies, opponents say.

"What are we teaching the next generation? Are we saying we live in a society where everyone should openly carry a gun?" asked Toby Hoover of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence.

"Most of us don't want to be walking down the street with someone who has a gun, but piece by piece by piece, nobody has a right to say that," she said. "Nobody has a right anymore to say, 'I don't want a gun near me.' "

A 2003 Ohio Supreme Court ruling said openly carrying a weapon was a constitutional right but that restrictions could be placed on concealing firearms.

That latter stipulation prompted House Bill 347, which put in place uniform rules for concealed carrying and created Ohio's "Right to Bear Arms" law in March 2007 to clearly state that open carry was legal.

In fact, to get away from the legalese sometimes decipherable only by jurists, the Ohio attorney general's office issued a primer on the state's gun laws that includes this line: "The open carry of firearms is legal activity in Ohio."

Still, that doesn't mean that everyone is clear on the law or even knows it exists.

"I tell people, if you're going to open carry, you might as well carry a retainer check, too," said gun rights attorney Ken Hanson of Delaware County, whose clients include the National Rifle Association. "Because you are going to create some excitement, and it is going to create police encounters."

Ohio is one of about 15 states that allow unlicensed open carrying everywhere with a few exceptions, such as for government buildings and establishments where liquor is sold. There have been confrontations between open carriers and police elsewhere, too.

Ohio law allows open carrying for adult nonfelons who are not brandishing or using the firearm in a threatening way. People convicted of misdemeanor drug offenses are also prohibited from openly carrying a gun.

And unlike rules for getting concealed-carry permits, which require holders to pay for training before buying their licenses, there are no such rules for open carrying, according to the law.

It has been a good month for gun-rights supporters, giving them renewed confidence in their right to carry openly, even as some question that provision of the law.

First, a law relaxing some concealed-carry rules took effect on Sept. 9. And then on Sept. 18, in a 4-3 decision, the Ohio Supreme Court said local governments cannot pass ordinances that conflict with the state gun law.

The decision struck a blow against a lawsuit Cleveland filed against the state a week after House Bill 347 took effect. The suit, in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court, contends the gun law illegally tramples the city's rights under the state constitution to self-govern and reasonably regulate firearms.

The issue of open carry could offer a new twist, and cases like Llewellyn's could be at the center of the debate.

"I think this could be the next big challenge to Ohio's gun laws, even though the law is clearly on our side," said Garvas, of Ohioans for Concealed Carry, which advises its members to open carry if they wish but to be cautious about it.

Hoover, from the anti-gun coalition, said she advises people all the time to call police if they see a person with a gun, despite the law.

"Because there is no way to know if that person is going somewhere to commit a crime with it, there's no way to know, so call the police," Hoover said. "I still think this part of the law can be tested."

The law does not explicitly state what is considered concealed carry. And Llewellyn himself questions whether he could have violated the statute since part of his gun, which he carried for three weeks before his arrest, was hidden beneath his belt line.

"It was in a military holster with a flap over the top, so I wonder if they consider that concealed," he said. "But it's a big, hulking holster with an extra clip, so you could clearly see it from the back. I mean, they had three calls to 9-1-1 that night."

Cleveland has a local ordinance prohibiting open carry, and police are under orders by Mayor Frank Jackson to continue enforcing the local rules despite the state law, according to Lt. Thomas Stacho, a department spokesman.

However, Llewellyn was not charged with violating the city ordinance, just the state law. Unfamiliar with the case, Stacho said that meant that the arresting officers must have felt Llewellyn was hiding the gun.

The Cuyahoga County prosecutor's office did not respond to requests for comment on the case.

Llewellyn is a transplant from New Hampshire who has called Ohio home the past 18 months but has moved to several Cleveland addresses. A bicyclist who works as a bike mechanic, Llewellyn said he was robbed at gunpoint earlier this year for the $5 he had in his pocket.

He decided then he wanted to get a gun for protection and bought his pistol from a former roommate for $100. But because he had recently moved (and has since moved again) Llewellyn had not established residency for at least four months to qualify for a concealed-carry permit.

He then learned that he could carry openly until he could get a concealed license.

He was arrested on Aug. 18, pleaded not guilty last week and was assigned a public defender.

"I think my case is pretty clear-cut," he said. "Any lawyer who understands the law should be able to help me get this dropped and get my weapon back."

Hanson, the gun-rights attorney, said that until the confusion over the law subsides, he worries a situation like Llewellyn's could end up worse.

"My biggest fear is you are going to have a police officer who is not versed [on the law] and you have a carrier who is not versed, and you have a tragic situation," Hanson said.

"That's why to me, it's not really a legal question anymore," he said. "I think at this point it is more a public-education issue."

Notice the Anti-gun group name - "Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence".
Why is it not "Ohio Coalition Against CRIMINAL Violence"?

[adymond]

Notice the Anti-gun group name - "Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence".
Why is it not "Ohio Coalition Against CRIMINAL Violence"?

See that right there is what pisses me off. I'm cool with Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, but Mothers Against Guns is like Mothers Against Drivers. Just stupid.

[djturnz]

HB 1845 Passed both House and Senate unanimously today.

Now for fast eddy's sig.

[P-11 shooter]

There's alot of things in that article that piss me off.

Don't even get me started.

I don't want to be "that guy" but what do you think the odds are that the guy is black?

[TaePo]

"Most of us don't want to be walking down the street with someone who has a gun, but piece by piece by piece, nobody has a right to say that," she said. "Nobody has a right anymore to say, 'I don't want a gun near me.' "

Whitefeather, I cannot believe you did not highlight this one! :0

Which amendment was that under?.....<silence> ...as they cannot find it enumerated anywhere.

[JohnKos]

"Because there is no way to know if that person is going somewhere to commit a crime with it, there's no way to know, so call the police," Hoover said.

I'm thinking i should call 911 every time i see somebody leave a bar and get into a car. I have no way of knowing whether they are going to use it to get into an accident and kill someone. Can't be to careful.

[kurt 10/22]

I don't want to be "that guy" but what do you think the odds are that the guy is black?

If you are referring to the individual who was OC'ing I don't see what difference it makes, unless you think that, that is why he was harassed, and charged, for a legal activity.

You can read all about it here,
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=22441

[Deanimator]

Poor Toby, she gets to events riding the short bus.

When CCW was just about to be passed in Ohio, she called a rally against State Rep Jim Trakas who was a big supporter of CCW.

The rally was supposed to be in a park in Independence, Ohio. Gun owners found out before the event happened. We showed up before Toby, and easily outnumbered her 5:1, if not more. We surrounded her little group of mutants so that the media couldn't get a shot of her without one of our signs in frame. To add insult to injury, John Lott showed up unannounced to talk for our side. The news people practically trampled Toby to death running to the other side of the park to interview Lott.

It was as though a Nazi Party rally had its thunder stolen by a klezmer festival, and Leni Reifenstahl joined the stampede to cover it.