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  1. #81
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    Default Re: how do we fix the nra ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    I don't have time to say much, but if you can't see how you are pushing people away from the NRA with your posts, I thought I'd mention it, because you are.
    Perhaps you shouldn't be speaking for other people.

    I will note that those who publicly wish for the NRA to die, who urge all members to stop sending them money, or who otherwise badmouth the NRA without providing a clear path to legislative or courtroom success in their absence, are working against the interests of gun owners.

    Further, the choices I've outlined above seem to me to describe the universe of possible actions in a non-binary choice world, i.e. "help", "stay neutral", or "harm". If you just want to see the NRA burn because you didn't get your way, then fine, admit it.

    I'm not mad, I'm disappointed.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ungawa's M16A1 is for sale, see the NFA ads! http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.ph...06#post3835606

  2. #82
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    Default Re: how do we fix the nra ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    do we have to start calling and writing letters to the nra to get them to stop supporting gun control .
    like red flag laws and bump stocks . it is getting nuts .
    They can only do what they can do.

    Where did the NRA support Gun Confiscation?

  3. #83
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    Default Re: how do we fix the nra ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobGun View Post
    The NRA did a real good job of informing the POTUS that the Bump stock Ban and Reg Flag Laws were negatives. They also did a good job of informing the POTUS about the negatives of his nominee for AG. They have done a terrific job of stopping legislators from supporting bad laws. They also did a real good job of supporting a POTUS candidate who has in the past supported gun bans, but when he need gun owner votes he suddenly got pro-gun.

    We have to keep the pressure on.

    Some history....

    Ronald Reagan supported the Feinstein ban. So did Poppy Bush. Junior said that he'd sign a ban if Congress would pass it. Republican support is why we got saddled with the Brady Law and the Feinstein ban in 1994.

    The NRA kept Obama from passing all sorts of foolishness. They helped to repeal the disability for people who surrendered Power of Attorney.

    The NRA is an imperfect servant. They can only do what we help them to do.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: how do we fix the nra ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Yes, if we include the new members that you personally and generously paid for...
    Perhaps you could consider how this snarky comment looks.

    Not really going to argue with you. Just pointing out that you are not really helping make your case by all the "name calling" and stuff like this.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: how do we fix the nra ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    Perhaps you could consider how this snarky comment looks.

    Not really going to argue with you. Just pointing out that you are not really helping make your case by all the "name calling" and stuff like this.
    You literally have no idea what you're talking about here. Ask around.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ungawa's M16A1 is for sale, see the NFA ads! http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.ph...06#post3835606

  6. #86
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    Default Re: how do we fix the nra ?

    Sick of the NRA? Read this.

    https://www.breachbangclear.com/sick...hen-read-this/


    This was written by NRA Board Member Duane Liptak. It’s a long read, but if you’re in the ranks of those who are pro-gun but anti-NRA, it’s worth the read.

    So, it’s relatively popular to bash the NRA right now, and we have a lot of folks in our own community that are happy to jump on that bandwagon. I get it. I don’t like where we are at with the 2A situation, either, and I wish the NRA could yell “Shall not be infringed,” from the mountaintops. But, through my involvement with the org over the past years, and the insight into the DC and state level situations I’ve unfortunately had to gain while lobbying and managing lobbying efforts, I also understand some things that make me appreciate the strengths of what the NRA actually brings to us, and I felt compelled to share that as a comment on some posts that decried the current state of the NRA. Some folks urged me to make it sharable, so I’m doing so, with some cleaning up of my language. �� I get that some folks will call me full of it, or claim “the NRA is in full damage control” or whatever, but this isn’t an NRA statement. This is a statement from me, a very, very zealous advocate for extreme libertarian gun rights, with an understanding of the current political landscape. Take it as you will, but please put aside your prejudices for just a moment to read, because if we can’t get everyone pushing in the same direction, we can’t beat the disarm America movement, because they are more than willing to get together to achieve our ruin.

    ————————————————————-

    In any of this commentary, I’m speaking for myself, not for the NRA. I have to use that disclaimer, as I’m speaking out of turn, and this is MY PERSONAL understanding of the events and information, not official NRA position. I suppose some of this information could also be potentially damaging to future efforts because it lays out some reasoning and strategy, but it’s to a point right now where people need to understand some things. The NRA is not just your best defense, they are your ONLY defense. FPC does fantastic legal work, as does SAF. GOA is great at grass roots email activation and they file some amicus briefs and lawsuits. All of them have ZERO capability to interact with lawmakers in a meaningful way more than me running up to DC, which I do a couple times a year. No one else does, period, and that’s why I’m on board with helping to steer the NRA rather than bash it.

    I’ll start out by saying I’m about as hard core libertarian on gun laws as it gets, as in mail order suppressed FA belt feds for everyone. Let’s also get out that pretty much everyone in the NRA building is pretty far along that line, as well. I was talking to Chris and crew about strategies to open the registry during the Bumpfire stock litigation while we talked about how to fight some of the things we know are coming. They’re on board, really. Now, the other side of this is that it’s Washington, D.C., and the number one priority of most congress-folk is getting re-elected. To some extent, that’s fine, as they are supposed to be representing the will of their district or state, and votes support that. When they evaluate an issue, they look at how it will help or hurt their re-election, and…what else they can get for it. If they support A, can they get B as an amendment to help their state, can they count on attracting donors with a particular stance, etc. So let’s take a look at the bumpfire stock thing.

    After Vegas, bumpfire stock legislation was drafted, but NRA had the juice to kill it. Then we have Parkland, and the public outcry to the lawmakers is that we have to “do something for the children”, even if it’s meaningless and dumb—because it was kids this time instead of adults in a currently unsympathetic demographic like Vegas. A strong majority of both chambers were willing to pass a bumpfire stock ban as “something”. The language in the legislative ban included binary triggers, cranks, etc., and could also at some point be interpreted by ATF to include ANY aftermarket trigger and even be mangled to include semi-autos in general as having the capability to have rates of fire similar to machine guns and thus, be regulated. It would be a disaster. NRA pushed back hard, but guess what…the legislators were reacting to public sentiment, and they had more than enough votes to pass it. It was going to come out of committee.

    We (Magpul) yelled at our lobbyists to kill it. NSSF was trying to kill it. NRA was trying to kill it. But…Trump apparently dislikes two things in the firearms world: bumpfire stocks and elephant hunting, for reasons that are his own. So a veto was not happening. So…what’s your play? You can say “No bans, not one inch” and send out a fundraising email, and everyone would feel good about the NRA position, but the ban would have passed, and the Dems would potentially have everything they needed for a semi-auto ban already in law, ready to be interpreted nefariously. So, the decision to make the push to regulatory was hatched. NSSF was on board, as well, as everyone thought there was a better chance of killing it in regulatory, or at least fighting it as it would be a hell of a stretch to regulate like that. The NRA’s wording was poor from my perspective. Even if they said, “you don’t need legislation because this is a regulatory matter, and regulatory can take a look at it and clarify,” that would have been better. But, they didn’t…for a few reasons.

    One, I’m sure they hoped that their “support” of a regulatory fix could sour the legislative efforts and then cancel the regulatory look, too. In any case, the legislation was averted by the push to regulatory, and the regulatory ban is narrow and also likely to be overturned. FPC is making good authority arguments in their suit, and the NRA is arguing on “takings”. The Dems have reintroduced the legislative ban in the house this session because they wanted the “other” stuff that was also intentionally included. As long as the regulatory ban lasts while legal arguments are happening, the bill can probably be killed. Is that a trade or a compromise? No. It’s not a trade if a dog turd sandwich is being forced down your throat, and it’s pretty much a done deal, but you manage to get away with only taking one bite instead of the whole thing. But, the left LOVES it when the NRA does such things because they have trolls that are helping to divide the gun community, although we do a great job of it ourselves.

    The stronger the NRA is, the stronger the positions can be. The more members the NRA has, the more pressure they can bring in discussions about elections and the more support that stronger positions have when talking to politicians. The more money they have, the more we can spend in elections. Is the NRA perfect? Oh, heck no! No organization is. But they are our only real chance. The NRA, with the help of the NSSF, also, has killed an actual AWB and magazine restrictions on the national level several times in the past few years alone. I, or our lobbyists, have seen it. No one else was even considered part of the conversation, regardless of posturing. We also wouldn’t have FOPA, and if anyone wants to complain about Hughes, which I hate as much as anyone, if you were currently living under GCA ’68, and had the chance to get the FOPA protections, but someone slipped in the Hughes amendment at the last minute to try to poison the bill, you’d still support passing it.

    The NRA didn’t give you GCA ’68. They tried to minimize damage in another time when overwhelming support for even worse gun control existed after Kennedy and King were assassinated. NFA originally included handguns, also, and was in a similar period of hysteria about mob violence. Without the NRA and also the NSSF, we wouldn’t have had the Lawful Commerce in Arms act of 2005, and the entire firearms industry in the US would be out of business by now—sued into bankruptcy just by fending off lawsuits from Bloomberg lawyers.

    There are a lot of wins there, but make no mistake…I want more, too. However…please understand that even with the R majority we had for the last two years…soft Rs like Flake, Rubio, and the other purple district congressmen and senators had us in a bad spot even then. Repealing the NFA, as much as I want that to die, has about 5% support in Congress right now. You’re not getting that legislatively unless you change out 95% of Congress, no matter how hard we could push for it, or how many “strong statements” anyone makes.
    We are, in reality, barely hanging on to a slim majority of elected officials at the national level that even believes the 2A is an individual right!

    The only path to right this course, especially with states like CA, CO, NJ, MA, NY, WA, etc., is through judicial review. And…love Trump or hate him, regardless of anything else he has done, if it were Hillary putting 2, possibly 3 judges on the USSC bench, the 2A would be dead in 10 years. That’s why NRA went all in with him. Not because he was a philosophically pure candidate on all of 2A, but because he was willing to put pro 2A judges on the bench, and because he could win. No one else on our side could, and the alternative—a Hillary presidency—would be disastrous.

    Someone is going to bring up salaries and expenditures and mail solicitations, and such, so let me hit that for a second. Executive salaries in the NRA are not shabby. Agreed. They are, however, less than organizations like the Red Cross, AARP, and other not-for-profit .orgs of similar size, and you have to understand that NRA execs are limiting their future options by taking that job. You’re not going from the NRA to Patagonia, REI, or ANY politically sensitive company. But… we can still do better, I think. There is a compensation review coming.

    The organization has already slashed budgets by increasing efficiencies, cutting funding to major habitual contractors, tightening up contracts in general, and all around tightening up the ship. The new Treasurer is a stud. Good things are happening as far as a fiduciary responsibility to the members, as the org knows there is a BIG fight coming in 2020. And rumors of things like cutting off coffee to staff are BS. They just went from a vendor, like many offices use, to a self-administered coffee mess…like many offices use. We have that here. I hate getting junk mail, but they produce results. I’d love to streamline the opt-out process for that, plus maybe knock off the renewal notices a month after you renew and things like that, and those are goals of mine, but we also need the cash and members to keep up the fight, and the mailings produce results. Is it enough to offset people who don’t renew to avoid the harassment? I don’t know…but I’d like to look at it. Help to recruit a few new members yourself, and that will help cut down on calls and mailings.

    Anyway, this is a heck of a rant, but I’ve seen too much NRA bashing lately by those who don’t know what’s even going on in DC. It’s a mess. I hate going there. But, the NRA is actually our best advocate there, regardless of what you think about some of the publicly stated positions. Making a press release that says, “We support repealing the NFA and doing away with the 4473 and all other remnants of GCA ’68,” doesn’t actually accomplish anything if you can’t produce results. It actually damages the ability to explain the real downsides of the issues that are at hand, with support, that need to be killed, because you won’t even get to talk to the people on the fence to make your case. Dems tend to ask for “common sense gun reform”, which we know means disarm America. Consider looking at NRA public statements through the same lens, in reverse. Maneuvering the swamp requires talking in less than absolute terms, even when behind the scenes, your goal is absolute. I have friends on the NRA staff. You’re not going to find more ardent supporters of the absolute, not to be infringed 2A than those people.

    One last note on red flag laws…If you take a look at the terms the NRA is talking about, it’s adding the poison pills that make it less appealing to Dems—you know, like due process, and penalties for false reports, which they are really trying to get around with these. There’s not a single person in the NRA building that wants red flag laws–because of the risk of abuse. But…saying “not one inch” and sending out emails saying how strong someone’s stance is (that doesn’t actually accomplish anything legislatively) gives the left free reign to build whatever narrative and language they want. With NRA “supporting” a full due process version, it actually drives hardcore Dems sour on an “NRA supported bill”—because they don’t actually want a bill to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill or dangerous people…there are trying to disarm regular Americans.

    You may also see attempts to tie reciprocity or HPA to it, whether NRA supported, or just through the actions of Republicans. That’s not a “compromise” or “deal”–it’s trying to pull a Hughes amendment on the Dems. To kill just enough support from their hardcore that it starts to falter—while they work moderates and weak republicans behind the scenes on the real issues. We’re actually in a really shitty spot with support for UBC and red flag laws in Congress, and without mechanisms like this, they’d pass a horrible version pretty handily in the house, and it is dangerously close in the Senate. If we have—God forbid—another shooting, it would sail through.

    I don’t like any of this any more than the next guy, but people bash the NRA a lot without understanding the reality of how the silly reindeer games get played on the hill. Try to at least understand the value that the organization provides because it is big and very real, and critically important. I want a live tank in my front yard and mail order Solothurn S-18/1000’s from Bannerman’s. But the path to get there isn’t exactly a clear one in the current legislative environment. Without the strength of the NRA helping to pack the courts, shape elections the best we can, fight off bad legislation wherever possible and pave the way to improve rights through the judiciary (we’ve confirmed 85 federal judges in addition to the 2 Supremes with 130 more to go), I fear we won’t have a path to it at all. That’s why I’m a member, and helping to make the organization as right as we can get it is why I got involved.

    I get the frustration. I’m mad that we’re even in this situation. How could we, a republic, born from free men taking up arms against oppression, even be considering some of this nonsense? It baffles me. And, I used to be super frustrated with the NRA, also. Until…I was forced into being involved in politics and seeing how this whole mess works. Now I know what I have to do, and I hope everyone out there who cares about gun rights can get on board, too.

    So, if you want to support GOA or FPC or FPC, or JPFO…that’s fantastic. Join your state organization, also. Be active locally. Let your elected representatives know how you feel on these issues regularly. But…be a member of the NRA, and be active. Vote. Let the board and the staff know where you stand on issues. Help to be a part of the solution. If we, as gun owners, can’t stick together and take advantage of the strengths of all of our organizations where they can do the most good, we will lose this fight. I’m not willing to lose.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: how do we fix the nra ?

    So in essence feel free to support all other pro 2A orgs even though they suck shit and stop bashing the NRA, send your money and STFU.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: how do we fix the nra ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Berncly View Post
    Agreed.
    Small notation, I believe the GOA is up to 1.5 million+ members.
    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Yes, if we include the new members that you personally and generously paid for...
    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    Perhaps you could consider how this snarky comment looks.

    Not really going to argue with you. Just pointing out that you are not really helping make your case by all the "name calling" and stuff like this.
    Thanks for looking out for me Empty.
    Just to clarify.
    Phil knew I would take the joke in context without thinking it was mean spirited (it was kind of an inside joke).
    Everything I have done with the GOA memberships and money in general would not have been possible without Phil's help.
    How can you have any cookies if you don't drink your milk?

  9. #89
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    Default

    Original article has a Pay Wall
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/n...389?mod=hp_lead_pos9


    Found the article cut out here.
    http://lerant.proboards.com/th...r-stocks-prohibition


    NRA Faces a Challenge From Pro-Gun Advocates
    Smaller groups draw interest after bump-stock ban; ‘the NRA is appeasing to the middle, they’re not pro-gun enough’

    ----------------------


    Dustin Coleman has bought a booth at the National Rifle Association’s annual convention for his shooting accessories company for the past three years.

    But last month, he canceled his reservation and donated the $1,400 rental fee to a rival group, the Firearms Policy Coalition. His reason: The NRA, the nation’s leading Second Amendment group with 5.5 million members, is no longer pro-gun enough.

    “The NRA is appeasing to the middle, they’re not pro-gun enough,” said Mr. Coleman, who has a lifetime NRA membership. He said he chose to give money to the Firearms Policy Coalition because it is fighting the Trump administration’s December bump-stock ban in court.

    Smaller organizations, often with Second Amendment positions more strident than the NRA, are seeking to capitalize on complaints from people like Mr. Coleman that the NRA didn’t do enough to stop the ban on the devices. Bump stocks convert semiautomatic rifles into simulacrums of machine guns and were used in 2017’s Las Vegas massacre.


    The rule barring ownership of the devices was the first time in more than half a century that the federal government has required any gun or gun-related accessory to be turned over or destroyed en masse, according to gun historians. The Second Amendment grants the right to bear arms.

    The criticism of the NRA illustrates the difficult position the group finds itself in when President Trump, whose election it supported, takes a position that upsets the most ardent gun-rights advocates.

    “There was overwhelming legislative support for proposals that went far beyond these specific devices,” the NRA said in a statement last month. The group asked Congress to allow the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to review the device, “rather than sit back and watch a legislative over-reaction,” it said.

    The NRA said it doesn’t support bans on anything and that at a minimum there should be an amnesty period for those who own bump stocks.

    The group, which had its biggest-ever annual convention in Dallas last year, is facing declining member dues and contributions, which fell 21% to $230 million, according to the most recent data. NRA officials say that is in line with previous years after gun-friendly presidents were elected.

    It is also fending off a reinvigorated gun-control movement led by the teenage survivors of the Valentine’s Day shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla. Their activism has pushed major companies from Delta Air Lines Inc. to MetLife Inc. to cut ties with the group.

    Trent Steidley, an assistant professor at University of Denver who has studied the gun-rights movement, said the smaller groups don’t have NRA’s clout in Washington. They exercise their power largely by putting pressure on the NRA, he said.

    The NRA is “more worried about being outflanked on the right than on the left,” Mr. Steidley said.

    An NRA spokesman said the group is focused on fighting against the efforts of gun-control advocates.


    One smaller, pro-gun group, GeorgiaCarry.org, which has 8,000 members, objects to the NRA’s position on bump stocks. “They pretty well gave the Trump administration permission to ban it if they wanted to,” said Jerry Henry, the group’s executive director.

    Other groups like the Firearms Policy Coalition in California and Virginia-based Gun Owners of America, which sued to block the bump-stock rule change, are using the moment to push members for support.

    “Compromise is the quickest way to lose freedom,” reads a Facebook post for Gun Owners of America.

    The Firearms Policy Coalition this week offered its social media followers a chance to win a Beretta semiautomatic pistol for making a small donation, trumpeting its role “leading the charge to dismantle the federal bump-stock ban.”

    Both organizations said they have added members and donations in recent months, thanks to the bump-stock issue, but declined to provide figures.

    Blue Alpha Gear, Mr. Coleman’s NRA convention booth partner, also isn’t planning on attending this year. Co-owner Kurt Sills said he doesn’t own a bump stock, but he doesn’t like the precedent. He said it is unfair that people who have done nothing wrong should have to turn them in or face jail time.

    “I would’ve hoped that they would be putting up more of a fight,” he said, referring to the NRA.

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