Form 4 person to person transfer

[Xringshooter]

The way I understand it, since a SBR (or SBS) is considered to be a "firearm" by PA according to Chapter 61, Subchapter A, Section 6102 - Definitions, it would have to be transferred through a FFL who is authorized to do this type of transfer (a FFL who has an SOT). As such, the seller would have to transfer the SBR to the FFL/SOT on a Form 4 ($200 tax to be paid by someone) and the FFL/SOT then transfers it to the buyer (another Form 4 and $200 tax paid by the buyer). When the Approved Form 4 (for the transfer to the buyer) arrives, the FFL/SOT will have the buyer fill out a 4473 and the SP4-113 for the PSP and call it in. That said, someone would need to clarify with the PICS people why the BGC through PICS is necessary since the buyer has already undergone a BGC when applying for the Form 4. I am willing to bet the PSP will say they have to undergo the PICS check anyway.

If the buyer passed the Form 4 BGC but did not pass the PICS, I tell the buyer to do the challenge form and show that he was approved by the BATFE and see what happens. If the Form 4 comes back as disapproved, or the PSP upholds the PICS denial, then the FFL/SOT still "owns" the item and he works with the original seller on what to do next.

It's different with suppressors as PA does not consider them as "firearms". When a buyer purchases a suppressor through me, once the approved form 4 comes in, they do a 4473 and they leave with their suppressor, no PICS required because of them not being considered firearms (the PSP person I talked the first time I did a suppressor transfer said that to them, the PSP, they are just an accessory so no BGC was necessary).

However, pre July 2016, those doing trusts for their NFA items (SBRs, SBS, MGs) had to do it a bit different in that whichever trustee picks up the NFA item, they had to fill out the 4473 and undergo the PICS because the trustees did not have to undergo a BGC by the ATF at that time. They did not have to do the PICS for a suppressor, again because PA did not consider them as firearms.

Since the change, now everyone listed on a trust has to undergo a BGC. Then, when the approved Form 4 shows up, the person picking up the NFA item fills out the 4473 and it is annotated that no BGC is required because one was done as part of the NFA application.

[ExFlyinguy]

The way I understand it, since a SBR (or SBS) is considered to be a "firearm" by PA according to Chapter 61, Subchapter A, Section 6102 - Definitions, it would have to be transferred through a FFL who is authorized to do this type of transfer (a FFL who has an SOT). As such, the seller would have to transfer the SBR to the FFL/SOT on a Form 4 ($200 tax to be paid by someone) and the FFL/SOT then transfers it to the buyer (another Form 4 and $200 tax paid by the buyer). When the Approved Form 4 (for the transfer to the buyer) arrives, the FFL/SOT will have the buyer fill out a 4473 and the SP4-113 for the PSP and call it in. That said, someone would need to clarify with the PICS people why the BGC through PICS is necessary since the buyer has already undergone a BGC when applying for the Form 4. I am willing to bet the PSP will say they have to undergo the PICS check anyway.

If the buyer passed the Form 4 BGC but did not pass the PICS, I tell the buyer to do the challenge form and show that he was approved by the BATFE and see what happens. If the Form 4 comes back as disapproved, or the PSP upholds the PICS denial, then the FFL/SOT still "owns" the item and he works with the original seller on what to do next.

It's different with suppressors as PA does not consider them as "firearms". When a buyer purchases a suppressor through me, once the approved form 4 comes in, they do a 4473 and they leave with their suppressor, no PICS required because of them not being considered firearms (the PSP person I talked the first time I did a suppressor transfer said that to them, the PSP, they are just an accessory so no BGC was necessary).

However, pre July 2016, those doing trusts for their NFA items (SBRs, SBS, MGs) had to do it a bit different in that whichever trustee picks up the NFA item, they had to fill out the 4473 and undergo the PICS because the trustees did not have to undergo a BGC by the ATF at that time. They did not have to do the PICS for a suppressor, again because PA did not consider them as firearms.

Since the change, now everyone listed on a trust has to undergo a BGC. Then, when the approved Form 4 shows up, the person picking up the NFA item fills out the 4473 and it is annotated that no BGC is required because one was done as part of the NFA application.

That's how I understood it too, and why I call a SBR a "Your's for life" gun, because it is another $400 just to transfer it to somebody else.

[Xringshooter]

Well, that's in PA, other states don't do it the same as PA does and the transfer IS person to person with just a Form 4 being done for the buyer. I don't see the need for interference by the PSP if a buyer can pass the federal BGC - OTHER THAN THE PSP WANTS TO KNOW WHO OWNS WHAT.

[bogey1]

What is a machine gun considered? You can carry one on ones person like a pistol, and carry one in your car, but dont need a ffl to transfer.

[knight0334]

What is a machine gun considered? You can carry one on ones person like a pistol, and carry one in your car, but dont need a ffl to transfer.

If the MG has measurements that meet the definition of a PA "firearm" then it will need to be transferred thru a FFL. If the measurements exceed PA "firearm", once the Form 4 is processed, approved, and buyer has tax stamp - sell just gives it to the buyer.

[Xringshooter]

If the MG has measurements that meet the definition of a PA "firearm" then it will need to be transferred thru a FFL. If the measurements exceed PA "firearm", once the Form 4 is processed, approved, and buyer has tax stamp - sell just gives it to the buyer.

This ^^^^ is how it is determined. An M-16 with a standard barrel is a MG but also a rifle due to its measurements. Person to person transfer (with approved Form 4) does not need a FFL/SOT. Glock 18 is a MG (actually a fully automatic pistol) and if you could get one, it would have to be processed through a FFL/SOT. MP5, submachine gun with a short barrel, is a SBR and a MG so needs the FFL/SOT to transfer.

[G&ALLC]

So I got the answer today from the ATF and PICS. As was said above and made sense to me is confirmed correct. If it’s under 16” for rifle, 18” for shotgun, and or overall length of 26” in PA it must be on a pistol form. There are no exceptions you are in violation of the crimes code if you do not follow this. In this case I am a FFL/SOT holder and a friend of mine asked advice on selling his SBR to another person. This is done by him and the buyer getting together and doing a new form 4. The seller will receive the new form 4 after approval and meet with the new owner and hand him SBR and new form 4 in new owners name. To be in compliance at the same time they stop by my shop and the new owner does a 4473 and pistol form as if it were a private party transfer. Everyone is legal and the new owner is set. This also then removes the SBR from the old owners name as he would have had to do the same process of 4473 and pistol form when he first bought the SBR in PA. Now we all know, thanks for all the help. Great group and forum.

[ExFlyinguy]

So I got the answer today from the ATF and PICS. As was said above and made sense to me is confirmed correct. If it’s under 16” for rifle, 18” for shotgun, and or overall length of 26” in PA it must be on a pistol form. There are no exceptions you are in violation of the crimes code if you do not follow this. In this case I am a FFL/SOT holder and a friend of mine asked advice on selling his SBR to another person. This is done by him and the buyer getting together and doing a new form 4. The seller will receive the new form 4 after approval and meet with the new owner and hand him SBR and new form 4 in new owners name. To be in compliance at the same time they stop by my shop and the new owner does a 4473 and pistol form as if it were a private party transfer. Everyone is legal and the new owner is set. This also then removes the SBR from the old owners name as he would have had to do the same process of 4473 and pistol form when he first bought the SBR in PA. Now we all know, thanks for all the help. Great group and forum.

Glad you got the answer you are comfortable with, and it does make more sense- it's just not how I understood it.

Honestly since the laws are so FUBAR I think they make shit up as they go along.

[MD66948]

I have done in state transfers of HK51s with a Fleming Sears. The sears were the Registered MG. No Issues. The HK 51s have 8" barrels so I divorced them from the sears by registering them as SBRed Rifles. You need to do that divorce if you plan to have more then one host firearm for the sears.

Beware some builders registered the firearm with the sear in them. They cannot be divorced from the sear.

[bogey1]

If the MG has measurements that meet the definition of a PA "firearm" then it will need to be transferred thru a FFL. If the measurements exceed PA "firearm", once the Form 4 is processed, approved, and buyer has tax stamp - sell just gives it to the buyer.

I'll have to check my paperwork, as I think it was registered a rifle,
even though it only had a 4" barrel.