Loaded firearms in vehicles.

[vladtepes]

What's missing from this analysis of "the cost of an empty chamber" is any awareness of "the cost of a loaded chamber". Not one word.

This is the defect of every armchair warrior who maximizes his instant-readiness coefficient without ever noticing the number of ND's resulting from that choice.

that is an absolutely fair statement..
with that said there are tons of instances of risk and reward right?

"IF you always carried on an empty chamber, you would be less likely to accidentally shoot you or someone else" is a TRUE statement
but I would also argue that
"If you carry on an empty chamber you are inducing one more point of failure and delay should you ever need that gun in a life or death situation"

If you were really that uncomfortable with carrying on a loaded chamber I would go to something like a revolver that with the right selection can be very very difficult to fire by accident.. before I would advise someone to carry unloaded.. I have never been shot at.. but there is enough data in the real world.. security cameras... dash cams.. body cams.. to know that when someone decides to act violently.. especially if you don't take notice of the situation.. your window of opportunity to respond can be microscopic... adding more unnecessary delay does not sound like the key to success..

now if you.. or anyone else wants to carry on an empty chamber.. that is the only way they feel comfortable.. then by all means.. go for it.. I am happy you are at least carrying a gun.. happy you are at least pro gun.. but I just do not find it to be the best setup for success..

[GunLawyer001]

that is an absolutely fair statement..
with that said there are tons of instances of risk and reward right?

"IF you always carried on an empty chamber, you would be less likely to accidentally shoot you or someone else" is a TRUE statement
but I would also argue that
"If you carry on an empty chamber you are inducing one more point of failure and delay should you ever need that gun in a life or death situation"

If you were really that uncomfortable with carrying on a loaded chamber I would go to something like a revolver that with the right selection can be very very difficult to fire by accident.. before I would advise someone to carry unloaded.. I have never been shot at.. but there is enough data in the real world.. security cameras... dash cams.. body cams.. to know that when someone decides to act violently.. especially if you don't take notice of the situation.. your window of opportunity to respond can be microscopic... adding more unnecessary delay does not sound like the key to success..

now if you.. or anyone else wants to carry on an empty chamber.. that is the only way they feel comfortable.. then by all means.. go for it.. I am happy you are at least carrying a gun.. happy you are at least pro gun.. but I just do not find it to be the best setup for success..

I would quibble with 2 word choices: "unloaded" and "uncomfortable".

Legally, a gun with a loaded mag is "loaded". No jury in the world would accept a defendant's claim that his loaded-mag-in-the-gun, empty-chamber handgun was "unloaded". Pragmatically, if you were offering to help out some cop under fire and he asked if you had a loaded gun, you would not answer "no" simply because you had to rack the slide before it would fire, any more than you'd answer "no" if the safety was engaged and had to be released. I'd accept "immediately ready to fire" for any handgun with a loaded chamber, safety off, hammer back if not a double-action. Anything else is "not immediately ready to fire".

Second, it's not about "comfort", which implies that a happy, confident man with a chambered round is no more likely to have an ND into terrain or bystanders than anyone else. It's about statistics, and the real world, and actuarial science. I'm equally comfortable driving with or without a seat belt, but in the real world, the seat belt is safer for most situations. The choice isn't between scaredy-cats and real men, it's about understanding the real world frequency of events, and I'm aware of many more news stories about ND's than about men or women who lost gun fights because they needed time to rack a slide. There's 1 video of a man who was shot because his carry gun needed to be racked, and he hesitated after drawing on the guy who was looking right at him. There are dozens of stories of men (always men) whose handguns "just went off" in their car or a public restroom or at home or elsewhere. Those are bad odds.

Any fan of John Wayne movies understands that even the Duke had to compromise between "max killing machine 24/7" and "not accidentally shooting someone". The Duke would carry his Colt with an empty chamber under the hammer, unless he knew he was actively walking into a gun fight.

[Hodgie]

Regardless of how anyone chooses to carry including John Wayne, I still prefer the state keep the hell out of my business and the decision to do so which is what this thread is about after all.

[rodspade]

It's about statistics, and the real world, and actuarial science. I'm equally comfortable driving with or without a seat belt, but in the real world, the seat belt is safer for most situations. The choice isn't between scaredy-cats and real men, it's about understanding the real world frequency of events, and I'm aware of many more news stories about ND's than about men or women who lost gun fights because they needed time to rack a slide. There's 1 video of a man who was shot because his carry gun needed to be racked, and he hesitated after drawing on the guy who was looking right at him. There are dozens of stories of men (always men) whose handguns "just went off" in their car or a public restroom or at home or elsewhere. Those are bad odds.

Statistics are relevant only for events that occur randomly. My holstered one-in-the-chamber carry gun isn't going to spontaneously discharge because of a statistic. Those guns "just went off" because of unsafe handling, not because the odds doom us to accidents. While I don't claim to be perfect, I know enough to keep it in a good holster and not touch it.

[Carnes]

Regardless of how anyone chooses to carry including John Wayne, I still prefer the state keep the hell out of my business and the decision to do so which is what this thread is about after all.

Yes. Keep the state the hell out of my business.

People have different experiences and assumptions related to the training they have been exposed to. It is easy for a person that has traditional classroom training to think that they will be able to do all manner of 'simple' things while under pressure.

[GunLawyer001]

Regardless of how anyone chooses to carry including John Wayne, I still prefer the state keep the hell out of my business and the decision to do so which is what this thread is about after all.

Agreed. I don't want to cede my autonomy to the state, or to the loudest voices on websites.

Statistics are relevant only for events that occur randomly. My holstered one-in-the-chamber carry gun isn't going to spontaneously discharge because of a statistic. Those guns "just went off" because of unsafe handling, not because the odds doom us to accidents. While I don't claim to be perfect, I know enough to keep it in a good holster and not touch it.

I suspect that every person who had an ND would say exactly that, every day right up until the ND.

Life is random, or at least largely so. We fool ourselves into thinking that we control our lives, because things that we mark on calendars often happen. But really, the other 7 billion people are pursuing their own agendas, and often they will interfere with your plans by getting in your way or distracting you at a crucial moment or missing a defective part on the Glock QC line.

It's why we carry guns. Not because we intend to kill anyone, or even wound anyone, or even wave a gun around. It's because of that random element, where your normal trip to the supermarket could be interrupted by a robbery or carjacking or road-raging ANTIFA goon or a mad bomber.

Shit happens. Give yourself some slack to deal with it.

[vladtepes]

I would quibble with 2 word choices: "unloaded" and "uncomfortable".

Legally, a gun with a loaded mag is "loaded". No jury in the world would accept a defendant's claim that his loaded-mag-in-the-gun, empty-chamber handgun was "unloaded". Pragmatically, if you were offering to help out some cop under fire and he asked if you had a loaded gun, you would not answer "no" simply because you had to rack the slide before it would fire, any more than you'd answer "no" if the safety was engaged and had to be released. I'd accept "immediately ready to fire" for any handgun with a loaded chamber, safety off, hammer back if not a double-action. Anything else is "not immediately ready to fire".

Second, it's not about "comfort", which implies that a happy, confident man with a chambered round is no more likely to have an ND into terrain or bystanders than anyone else. It's about statistics, and the real world, and actuarial science. I'm equally comfortable driving with or without a seat belt, but in the real world, the seat belt is safer for most situations. The choice isn't between scaredy-cats and real men, it's about understanding the real world frequency of events, and I'm aware of many more news stories about ND's than about men or women who lost gun fights because they needed time to rack a slide. There's 1 video of a man who was shot because his carry gun needed to be racked, and he hesitated after drawing on the guy who was looking right at him. There are dozens of stories of men (always men) whose handguns "just went off" in their car or a public restroom or at home or elsewhere. Those are bad odds.

Any fan of John Wayne movies understands that even the Duke had to compromise between "max killing machine 24/7" and "not accidentally shooting someone". The Duke would carry his Colt with an empty chamber under the hammer, unless he knew he was actively walking into a gun fight.

to be perfectly clear.. I sense that you have encountered some "machoness" about carrying loaded one in the chamber VS any other carry..

let me be VERY clear.. my comments are all based in logic.. not in how "cool" "tough" or "badass" you are..
I absolutely accept that an accident with my firearm could happen.. to circle back to your seatbelt analogy.. there are countless motor vehicle accidents per year.. and I could completely avoid those by moving somewhere in close proximity to a job.. grocery store.. etc.. and I could live out my life never getting behind the wheel again.. I could completely eliminate that risk..
you can carry a gun without one in the chamber "unloaded" not in the legal sense.. unloaded in the practical sense.. for the rest of time.. and you will greatly reduce your chance of a negligent discharge.. I will not dispute that..

But I choose to drive a car.. because despite the risk... I see it as the most efficient means to get the job done..
I carry one in the chamber of a Glock.. a gun with virtually no external safety.. because I believe.. if I need to defend myself one day.. that is the most efficient tool to do so.. in the most ready condition possible to do what it is intended to do..

your points are ALL valid and indisputable.. if you carry unloaded.. you are absolutely less likely to accidentally shoot yourself or someone else accidentally.. and your statement about everyone thinking not them is also totally valid..

but with all that said I don't think that you can discount what I stated about being in a state of ready if the time comes to ever need to use your gun... most private citizens are not used to being shot at.. are not used to being attacked on a regular basis.. are not used to performing in a life or death situation.. so the notion that they will successfully deploy.. rack.. aim.. and deliver a successful hit when it matters.. I think this notion is misplaced.. even with one in the chamber.. there are NUMEROUS videos where even at close range self defense shooters miss.. or have poorly placed hits.. and I just feel that introducing the manipulation of the slide could absolutely be the deal breaker to going home at the end of the night or ending up in a bag when we are talking about an interaction that occurs in seconds.. sometimes unprovoked out of "nowhere"..

I suggested a revolver because I think that is a very reasonable compromise.. the right revolver.. in the right holster.. loaded is going to take an absurd amount of effort and stupidity to result in a ND..

we are all gun enthusiast.. you can suggest that you prefer to carry your SD pistol unloaded with a trigger lock and slide removed.. and to that I would say more power to you.. I just think that you are not giving fair weight to the intensity of a SD situation for the normal person.. I have never been in a gun fight.. but I have been attacked.. I have been jumped.. I have had situations go from 0-100 in milliseconds.. and for me personally I had VERY little time to react.. fortunately I was never seriously hurt.. but the potential was definitely there..

[Lougotzz]

I have read threads like this on the net for a long time. Whocares how someone carries. It is up to the individual. Someone stated that certain times unchambered is warrented and I agree. I hate holsters. They are not comfortable and I never carry if I need a holster. I use to carry a g26 in my right pocket. It was very doable but I never trusted that gun without a holster chambered. So I would carry it unchambered. Watching many self defense videos I saw that most people are ambushed during a violent crime. I switched over to a sw 357 mag sub. 5 shot revolver double action only. Trigger pull is about 12 pounds but I feel very safe for pocket carry. Either way I chose what I thought was the safest and what was good for me at the time. Point being it has to be the individual to make the choice and change if needed but at his or her timeframe.
So I think both points of view are 100% valid pending circumstances.
Ymmv

ETA; I am not 100% happy with only 5 shots. I do carry 4 speed loaders with me but in a life and death situation loading a revolver with a speed loader is a lot more effort then racking the slide or implementing a semi auto reload.

[Bang]

Watch the Miami-Dade shoot-out. It's why the FBI, and all of the USA turned to the semi-auto. As various departments were crunching the numbers on that change, "experts" advised that a force carrying semi-auto would have to train a minimum of 4 times a year. Interesting times.

[vladtepes]

I have read threads like this on the net for a long time. Whocares how someone carries. It is up to the individual. Someone stated that certain times unchambered is warrented and I agree. I hate holsters. They are not comfortable and I never carry if I need a holster. I use to carry a g26 in my right pocket. It was very doable but I never trusted that gun without a holster chambered. So I would carry it unchambered. Watching many self defense videos I saw that most people are ambushed during a violent crime. I switched over to a sw 357 mag sub. 5 shot revolver double action only. Trigger pull is about 12 pounds but I feel very safe for pocket carry. Either way I chose what I thought was the safest and what was good for me at the time. Point being it has to be the individual to make the choice and change if needed but at his or her timeframe.
So I think both points of view are 100% valid pending circumstances.
Ymmv

ETA; I am not 100% happy with only 5 shots. I do carry 4 speed loaders with me but in a life and death situation loading a revolver with a speed loader is a lot more effort then racking the slide or implementing a semi auto reload.

it is just a spirited discussion regarding the value of different types of carry..

we "care" because we are all gun enthusiasts that share a common interest.. and well most of us carry..

I don't think anyone is bad mouthing anyone.. or stating anything with malice.. and sure.. some people feel comfortable carrying IWB no holster glock with one in the chamber.. and sure.. some prefer an unloaded revolver.. as long as the carry is not reckless in anyway.. then I don't think anyone is taking offense to the personal choice.. I am just saying if you are carrying with the intention of preserving your own life.. or the life of your family.. stack the odds in your favor as best you can.. LOL