De Facto registration with State to State Transfer???

[ReluctantPorkChop]

Hi everyone,

Here is a sticky wicket I'd like some help from you guys on.

My father in law has some handguns he'd like to gift to his daughter (my wife)
He lives in PA, we live in WA.

Both states have transfer exceptions for "immediate family" in terms of registration.

However we do have to get the guns across state lines to WA. So I'm told we transfer them between gun stores.
Normally such transfers require all kinds of documents but the laws of both states give the "immediate family" exception so it can be undocumented, right?
I'm not using undocumented in some kind of lawbreaker way, most transfers seem to be documented. This class of transfers seem not to be.
I've been plumbing the depths of NRA-ILA's website to some avail but some topics weren't covered there.

So here are questions about documentation that this undocumented transfer has generated.
I'm hoping you guys can shed some light upon them:

- Do we need some kind of document? (A letter from her father to her stating "here are the guns!" with or without notarization.) The laws for both states don't cover the interstate scenario in this familial undocumented transfer

- Do these firearms get registered with any government involved along the way without us knowing ?(WA, PA, US) My concern here is that at some point the guns show up as registered to two people and without documentation of a transfer, the BATF flags us (puts us on a no fly list, restrict passport renewals, all the fun stuff the Feds control)

- Does my wife and father in law need to be present to ship the guns? (He's deathly ill, hence the transfer, and my wife will likely fly back before I can get everything in place to send)

- Will the gun shop require proof of relationship? (I'm not even really sure how you prove you're the daughter or father of someone anyway)

Apologies for the long post. Any insight would be much appreciated!

[JenniferG]

Crazy un-Constitutional gun laws. "Shall not be infringed" means something different to today's gun grabbers and socialist bureaucrats. Talk to a good lawyer that understands the gun laws. There are a few here on this forum.

[gnbrotz]

Not sure about WA, but PA has laws specifically prohibiting "registration", as does the federal government. Of course, they get around this by having schemes like "recording transfers".

So long as the 'giver' is living, any interstate transfer will require the use of an FFL, and the completion of whatever paperwork is legally required on the receiver's end.

The giver *may* be able to ship the arms directly to the WA dealer, but while legal, it's becoming increasingly more difficult to do because of carrier policies (UPS and FedEx will only ship between 2 dealers) and some dealers won't accept shipments from a non-dealer anyway. Using a dealer on each end is definitely the simplest way to do it.

[gghbi]

I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure the overriding law is federal and requires the final FFL transfer to her must occur in WA state if that is her state of residency. The state immediate family rules are not in effect. She should make friends with a FFL near her and see what he/she needs to receive the guns. I thought UPS/FEDEX only needed a FFL at one end of the shipment, but that may have changed.

[ReluctantPorkChop]

I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure the overriding law is federal and requires the final FFL transfer to her must occur in WA state if that is her state of residency. The state immediate family rules are not in effect. She should make friends with a FFL near her and see what he/she needs to receive the guns. I thought UPS/FEDEX only needed a FFL at one end of the shipment, but that may have changed.

Sorry, didn't clarify enough. I was definitely planning on a dealer to dealer transfer.

Before the shipments get to the carrier will a dealer records serial numbers, send info to BATF, etc? Isn't that de facto registration?

And since this is a family transfer and no record of a sale exists wouldn't the serial numbers be attached to two people? Will that cause problems in the future?

[Berncly]

Sorry, didn't clarify enough. I was definitely planning on a dealer to dealer transfer.

Before the shipments get to the carrier will a dealer records serial numbers, send info to BATF, etc? Isn't that de facto registration?

And since this is a family transfer and no record of a sale exists wouldn't the serial numbers be attached to two people? Will that cause problems in the future?

The receiving FFL will run your background check and transfer to you the same as if it was a purchase.

[Emptymag]

Sorry, didn't clarify enough. I was definitely planning on a dealer to dealer transfer.

Before the shipments get to the carrier will a dealer records serial numbers, send info to BATF, etc? Isn't that de facto registration?

And since this is a family transfer and no record of a sale exists wouldn't the serial numbers be attached to two people? Will that cause problems in the future?

It's not a "family transfer" - it's just a "transfer".
There's no way for it to have "no record of sale" since each resides in a different state - it/they must be transferred via FFL.

If both lived in PA, then he could gift the handguns to his daughter, but since the handguns are crossing state lines, a transfer is required.

The transfer shows (on paper) who the current owner is - family, or otherwise.

In other words, "family" has no relevance in this at all. (unfortunately)

[Xringshooter]

ReluctantPorkChop:

Short answer is the PA and WA immediate family no paperwork transfer does not work here as the father and daughter are not currently residents of the same state. It would not work even if daughter were to make a trip to PA as she is a WA resident and dad is a PA resident. So guns have to be shipped from PA to WA. Once firearms cross state lines, FFLs must be involved. Now, if they were long arms only (rifles/shotguns), then daughter and husband could come to PA and dad could transfer the guns to her at any PA FFL who will do the paperwork. Even with that, the guns being transferred have to be legal to own in WA. If WA says any of the guns that dad wants to give daughter are prohibited in WA, then those couldn't be transferred.

Here's a short how it will have to happen to get the guns from her dad (PA) to her (WA).

1. Daughter finds a local FFL to accept the guns. Find out if FFL will accept guns from a non-FFL. If YES:
A. Daughter gets a copy of WA FFL license to send to her dad to use for shipping purposes
B. Dad packs up guns and ships, by common carrier (UPS or FedEx) since handguns are involved.
C. WA FFL gets guns, logs them into his books.
D. Daughter goes to WA FFL to do required transfer paperwork

2. If NO (WA FFL will not accept guns from a non-FFL):
A. Dad finds a local PA FFL to ship the handguns to the WA FFL
B. Local PA FFL coordinates shipment with WA FFL
C. WA FFL gets guns, logs them into his books.
D. Daughter goes to WA FFL to do required transfer paperwork

If the guns are given by dad to a PA FFL, the PA FFL will enter them into his records as an acquisition and then shows a disposition of the guns to the WA FFL. This is the only place the guns will be recorded in PA and that record stays with the PA FFL until he ceases business, then those records go to the BATFE storage facility.

The WA FFL will log the guns in as an acquisition from the PA FFL and a disposition of the guns to the daughter. The ATF Form 4473 that the daughter fills out stays with the WA FFL until he goes out of business or 20 years lapses and then he can destroy them if he chooses. The only other time the contents of the 4473 are disclosed to anyone would be if those records are subpoenaed by a court of law. I do not know what is required by WA law for firearms being bought or transferred so I will not comment.

[knight0334]

The other option.

FIL declares a beneficiary for the guns in his will - then dies.

Federal law, and PA law(and most other states), allow for direct transfers due to bequest or intestate succession. ...no paperwork required.

[Team Dougherty]

Hypothetically. What if her father gave her the firearms while she still lived in PA and she never took them with her to WA? Now she wants her firearms in WA with her. She would be able just to take them with her correct?