De Facto registration with State to State Transfer???

[ReluctantPorkChop]

Hi everyone,

Here is a sticky wicket I'd like some help from you guys on.

My father in law has some handguns he'd like to gift to his daughter (my wife)
He lives in PA, we live in WA.

Both states have transfer exceptions for "immediate family" in terms of registration.

However we do have to get the guns across state lines to WA. So I'm told we transfer them between gun stores.
Normally such transfers require all kinds of documents but the laws of both states give the "immediate family" exception so it can be undocumented, right?
I'm not using undocumented in some kind of lawbreaker way, most transfers seem to be documented. This class of transfers seem not to be.
I've been plumbing the depths of NRA-ILA's website to some avail but some topics weren't covered there.

So here are questions about documentation that this undocumented transfer has generated.
I'm hoping you guys can shed some light upon them:

- Do we need some kind of document? (A letter from her father to her stating "here are the guns!" with or without notarization.) The laws for both states don't cover the interstate scenario in this familial undocumented transfer

- Do these firearms get registered with any government involved along the way without us knowing ?(WA, PA, US) My concern here is that at some point the guns show up as registered to two people and without documentation of a transfer, the BATF flags us (puts us on a no fly list, restrict passport renewals, all the fun stuff the Feds control)

- Does my wife and father in law need to be present to ship the guns? (He's deathly ill, hence the transfer, and my wife will likely fly back before I can get everything in place to send)

- Will the gun shop require proof of relationship? (I'm not even really sure how you prove you're the daughter or father of someone anyway)

Apologies for the long post. Any insight would be much appreciated!

[JenniferG]

Crazy un-Constitutional gun laws. "Shall not be infringed" means something different to today's gun grabbers and socialist bureaucrats. Talk to a good lawyer that understands the gun laws. There are a few here on this forum.

[gnbrotz]

Not sure about WA, but PA has laws specifically prohibiting "registration", as does the federal government. Of course, they get around this by having schemes like "recording transfers".

So long as the 'giver' is living, any interstate transfer will require the use of an FFL, and the completion of whatever paperwork is legally required on the receiver's end.

The giver *may* be able to ship the arms directly to the WA dealer, but while legal, it's becoming increasingly more difficult to do because of carrier policies (UPS and FedEx will only ship between 2 dealers) and some dealers won't accept shipments from a non-dealer anyway. Using a dealer on each end is definitely the simplest way to do it.

[gghbi]

I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure the overriding law is federal and requires the final FFL transfer to her must occur in WA state if that is her state of residency. The state immediate family rules are not in effect. She should make friends with a FFL near her and see what he/she needs to receive the guns. I thought UPS/FEDEX only needed a FFL at one end of the shipment, but that may have changed.

[ReluctantPorkChop]

I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure the overriding law is federal and requires the final FFL transfer to her must occur in WA state if that is her state of residency. The state immediate family rules are not in effect. She should make friends with a FFL near her and see what he/she needs to receive the guns. I thought UPS/FEDEX only needed a FFL at one end of the shipment, but that may have changed.

Sorry, didn't clarify enough. I was definitely planning on a dealer to dealer transfer.

Before the shipments get to the carrier will a dealer records serial numbers, send info to BATF, etc? Isn't that de facto registration?

And since this is a family transfer and no record of a sale exists wouldn't the serial numbers be attached to two people? Will that cause problems in the future?

[Berncly]

Sorry, didn't clarify enough. I was definitely planning on a dealer to dealer transfer.

Before the shipments get to the carrier will a dealer records serial numbers, send info to BATF, etc? Isn't that de facto registration?

And since this is a family transfer and no record of a sale exists wouldn't the serial numbers be attached to two people? Will that cause problems in the future?

The receiving FFL will run your background check and transfer to you the same as if it was a purchase.

[Emptymag]

Sorry, didn't clarify enough. I was definitely planning on a dealer to dealer transfer.

Before the shipments get to the carrier will a dealer records serial numbers, send info to BATF, etc? Isn't that de facto registration?

And since this is a family transfer and no record of a sale exists wouldn't the serial numbers be attached to two people? Will that cause problems in the future?

It's not a "family transfer" - it's just a "transfer".
There's no way for it to have "no record of sale" since each resides in a different state - it/they must be transferred via FFL.

If both lived in PA, then he could gift the handguns to his daughter, but since the handguns are crossing state lines, a transfer is required.

The transfer shows (on paper) who the current owner is - family, or otherwise.

In other words, "family" has no relevance in this at all. (unfortunately)

[GunLawyer001]

It's been covered pretty well, but to sum up: all guns crossing state lines transferred between living individuals need at least 1 FFL involved. You can use an out-of-state FFL for long guns, but for handguns you can only receive from an FFL in your home state.

PA has a Record of Sale Database that's supposed to include all handguns transferred from any PA FFL. In addition, all handguns and long guns will be listed in the FFL's bound book, which he keeps for a couple decades or until he goes out of business, but his bound book can be examined by ATF at any time, and nothing stops them from copying pages.

[jthrelf]

ATF form 4473 isn't a registration per se. As the title of the form says, it's an application for transfer. The record of the NICS check is supposed to be destroyed within a few days. The records are only kept at the FFL, which as pointed out is open to ATF inspection.

Depending on WA private transfer requirements there may or may not be a defacto 'registration' in that sense.

[Emptymag]

ATF form 4473 isn't a registration per se. As the title of the form says, it's an application for transfer. The record of the NICS check is supposed to be destroyed within a few days. The records are only kept at the FFL, which as pointed out is open to ATF inspection.

Depending on WA private transfer requirements there may or may not be a defacto 'registration' in that sense.

Speaking of... I just watched Red Dawn the other night...



Round them up and take those people to the reeducation camp!