Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the land

    Do you, or someone you love, have a Pennsylvania license to carry firearms which has never been revoked? The answer is likely yes, even a sheriff has sent out a letter claiming revocation.

    To take Liberty, our Declaration of Rights says that it must be done through judgement of peers or the law of the land. Only a jury trial or authority from our general assembly would seem to permit revocation.

    We would then turn the Uniform Firearms Act, and the crimes code, section 6109(i). You might be surprised to learn that a revocation is not defined by this section. It does contain duties for a issuing authority, but performing those duties alone is no revocation at all.

    The general assembly also has provided us under Title 2, what they termed local agency law. What it says is that no local agency adjudication exists under law, unless notice and reasonable opportunity to be heard, along with a hearing with a possibility of transcription, and a finding of fact and charges, in writing, is made.

    When the Uniform Firearms Act provides for judicial review, that is not review from a letter, because one would not possibly know to what they are objecting in any sense of the judicial terms. So when you have an administrative hearing, which fleshes all of this out, you find out the whys and whats.

    Judicial relief is there for in the form of a petition for review, of the findings of an administrative law court. That relief is not there so that everyone can surprise each other with deceitful tactics, showmanship, and so on, inside of a courtroom. The review, what in most cases be that of the record generated below.

    Local agency law forces this pre deprivation process before a license can be considered adjudicated revoked. The courts in the 1980s and 90s, acknowledged that the sheriff is subject to local agency law.

    The general assembly does direct local agencies to optionally promulgate rules and procedures for an acting local agency law, but does not require it. Therefore, the default must be, that in a notice of revocation, a hearing date must be provided.

    Even an absence of local agency law, both are state and federal courts of concluded that deprivations of life liberty or property tend to require prompt pre or post deprivation process. That means, at the very least, that a quasi-judicial entity must determine something in a quasi Judicial Court. At best, it is an adversarial Hearing before a real judge.

    Most of us are probably aware, or we at least believe for whatever reason, that property is often taken without a warrant, and then is kept without a hearing. We have seen, or believe, the same, as for our Pennsylvania licenses. As recently as Caba v. Weaknecht, local agency law was mentioned, and a judge was aghast at the lack of the following of that law.

    You cannot waive your right to a process that has not begun, and is not your obligation to initiate. And in the absence of an adjudication, the truth is, you may never know or meet anyone across the state who is ever had their license revoked according to the law of the land or by Judgment of their peers.

    I do not see a reason to keep myself, or anyone else, from creating a one-page mailer for 67 Sheriffs and one Chief of Police, that provide this little infomercial, having the citations which back it.

    If I had could have a show of hands... who wants their issuing authority to abide the procedures provided by the only lawmaking body in our Commonwealth? Who would mail this or hand it to their issuing authority in person?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the lan

    Perhaps this philosophy will be useful in persuading yourself that you are "not really in jail", when the time comes.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the lan

    Issuing authorities alone are not the only to be faulted. The Pennsylvania State Police have the duty to mark no license revoked until they have received the evidence of the results of following Local Agency Law.

    If someone can win a $6,500 judgment from the Pennsylvania State Police, for interference with the right to bear arms, in the attempt to acquire such arms, it is likely the same for the Liberty as it is for the property. The Pennsylvania State Police would be liable for the interference when injury was caused by it.

    I should note that I suppose Philadelphia with a license and inspections board, is closer to carrying out local agency law. However, I have just read recent cases which say that they have upheld denials or revocations without enough evidence.

    The remedies are simple for the injuries that occur, if we should use them. Either the entity is not protected from suit, or the state waives immunity. Either you can Define the damages, and that's the amount of money, or you can get an injunction, enjoining their further misconduct, and upon violation, causing the court to either a sign further positive acts to The Entity, or penalty money to you.

    There's no reason that we should ignore the act of assembly which says something isn't done until the administrative process is performed. It helps maintain judicial economy. It puts together all the people with the most knowledge about the facts in one room to get them onto paper. It also provides the first bulkhead against the incursion of unlawful interference upon Liberty. If either the sheriff's sources, or your sources, of evidence, or persuasion of law, makes that sheriff realize that no good cause exists, no adjudication of revocation will have occurred.

    We are frankly very lucky to have a pre deprivation process in place, rather than a post deprivation process. It is clear that due process alone is not been enough to remind us that this is not a free-for-all for our public officials. There are rules, and they are reasonable and achievable, so that the ends of public policy will be obtained.

    The rules say that you need to have a hearing first. Embrac

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the lan

    Quote Originally Posted by Effecarry View Post
    Do you, or someone you love, ever posted a cool story bro?
    Who are you and what's your point?
    Owner Trigger Time LLc 01 FFL/NFA Saylorsburg, PA. Sales/Service/Transfers/Training
    NRA CRSO/Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun inst. BSA Rifle/Shotgun Merit badge counselor. US Navy Marksmanship Team Staff

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the lan

    I expect a law firm's name and phone number to be provided shortly to assist us in our time of need.
    Gender confusion is a mental illness

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the lan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosco the Iroc View Post
    Who are you and what's your point?
    Sheriff's are claiming to revoke licenses, without a prompt pre or post deprivation hearing. State law says it has to be a pre deprivation hearing. The first line of defense is educating the sheriff's and their solicitors of these facts.

    I have said nothing that you have not already heard in pieces over time by GunLawyer001, SigForLife, PeteG, and so on. This is a restatement, to encourage an act.

    If you are here to troll and not to contribute, leave the thread. Add to the commentary, provide an alternative, go away.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the lan

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunlawyer001/Moderator View Post
    Perhaps this philosophy will be useful in persuading yourself that you are "not really in jail", when the time comes.
    Well, you let us know when we are allowed to achieve the mystical knowledge that will get our public officials to follow the law, O gracious gun forum moderator.

    Until then, I suspect that sending a letter or speaking with one's issuing authority and perhaps their solicitor, is probably the safest front line for lobbying the executive.

    I somehow doubt that you believe that both due process and local agency law is not applicable. I would certainly like to know what you would suggest that we do, that is more safe and sensible, then getting our officials in line with the clear wording and intent of our legislature.

    I have yet to see a case where a Court denies, with words, the local agency law exist and is required to revoke the license. What I do see is the courts ignoring it. Yet, before the courts, is the issuing authority, the first, best Target.

    Perhaps, GunLawyer001, you might try less trolling, and instead provide comments and how we might better go about these activities. Otherwise, you can leave this thread. Try being an example for these gun owners.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the lan

    Quote Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter View Post
    I expect a law firm's name and phone number to be provided shortly to assist us in our time of need.
    Yes, because being offered a free one page letter to send to a sheriff so that they will follow the law (hopefully) is such a pretense. If you can't add to the content, or provide alternatives in advocacy, leave the thread. From me, not only is the first hit free, they all are. But Freedom isn't free, it costs a buck o five!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the lan

    Quote Originally Posted by Effecarry View Post
    Sheriff's are claiming to revoke licenses, without a prompt pre or post deprivation hearing. State law says it has to be a pre deprivation hearing. The first line of defense is educating the sheriff's and their solicitors of these facts.

    I have said nothing that you have not already heard in pieces over time by GunLawyer001, SigForLife, PeteG, and so on. This is a restatement, to encourage an act.

    If you are here to troll and not to contribute, leave the thread. Add to the commentary, provide an alternative, go away.
    oooh 3 post wonder is calling me a troll

    When they say it, they say it with sources cited and clarity and don't "suppose".

    They ( the Sheriff's) are not claiming- they are doing it and where is this claim you claim?
    So again what's your point? Are you here to lawyer? Did this happen to you?

    As for the " this hearing IAW state law" What one?
    Owner Trigger Time LLc 01 FFL/NFA Saylorsburg, PA. Sales/Service/Transfers/Training
    NRA CRSO/Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun inst. BSA Rifle/Shotgun Merit badge counselor. US Navy Marksmanship Team Staff

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Why your license was never actually revoked - juries, process, and law of the lan

    This thread should get very interesting on a number of fronts.
    There are no pacts between lions and men.

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