AR firearm (<26”) with VFG vehicle carry

[EvoRich]

I’ve always used my AR pistol for years to carry on long distance trips within PA or to states with reciprocity. At that time it was an 8” barrel with an AFG. Now that I configured it to over 26” I added a VFG (I’ve always prefered VFG a to handstopa and AFG’s).

Recent reading suggests the ATF classifies any firearm with a VFG that is concealed “on a person” is the wording the use, into an AOW. I never conceal this weapon on my person. That would be stupid. Though I would like to continue to use it for vehicle carry with the VFG installed. And the LTCF is indeed a “Lisence to Carry FIREARMS”

I built the gun over 26” specifically to use a VFG. Because I like them.

Vehicle carry is considered concealed in PA, however how do this all fit together in terms of the ATF’s wording?

[Gun]

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/op...ndgun/download

From this thread; https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-Clarification

There is nothing about length, since a pistol, federally, is designed to be fired by one hand.

IANAL.

To ADD: in the thread title, you used the less than symbol.

[gghbi]

To start with spelling out angled forward grip and vertical forward grip would be a big help! I do believe the vertical grip is problematic when carrying loaded in a vehicle, and does not meet PA rules for the LTCF. Someone should be along shortly to quote the correct rules. <<edit: see above post>>

[Emptymag]

"Vehicle carry" is not "concealed".

You need a LTCF to carry it loaded in a vehicle, but a LTCF is not specific to "concealment".

[EvoRich]

"Vehicle carry" is not "concealed".

You need a LTCF to carry it loaded in a vehicle, but a LTCF is not specific to "concealment".

This is what I was thinking, but was unable to find it anywhere is writing. Would having it in a case loaded mag, empty chamber be considered concealed? As the ATF does say specific “on a person”

[EvoRich]

"Vehicle carry" is not "concealed".

You need a LTCF to carry it loaded in a vehicle, but a LTCF is not specific to "concealment".

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/op...ndgun/download

From this thread; https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-Clarification

There is nothing about length, since a pistol, federally, is designed to be fired by one hand.

IANAL.

To ADD: in the thread title, you used the less than symbol.

I was actually reading that thread before I made my post! Haha. Sometimes I find it difficult to reach a conclusion and find basic information in such long threads where multiple people are discussing back and forth with very long replies.

[EvoRich]

To start with spelling out angled forward grip and vertical forward grip would be a big help! I do believe the vertical grip is problematic when carrying loaded in a vehicle, and does not meet PA rules for the LTCF. Someone should be along shortly to quote the correct rules. <<edit: see above post>>

That’s the conclusion I was coming to as I read mulitie places where a Firearm otherwise classified as a firearm even with a vertical grip is then suddenly classified as an AOW once concealed. But i started to wonder, in PA is the vehicle or a case in which the firearm is in considered concealment.

[Sgt.K]

But i started to wonder, in PA is the vehicle or a case in which the firearm is in considered concealment.

In PA, the vehicle is considered a vehicle, and to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle requires LTCF. Nothing in that sentence refers to concealed.

An unloaded, cased firearm is a cased firearm. Nothing in that sentence refers to or is concealed. Without LTCF you can only have it in the car to/from enumerated locations. Still haven't mentioned concealed.

IANAL

[TaePo]

I think you may be mixing state statute and federal law. Each have their own definitions and requirements. You must be able to satisfy both and each.

A good example is medical marijuana. Many states legalised it but not at the Federal level. It is quite possible the Federal level can be satisfied but not at the state level, too.

In PA, I believe your gun must fit the definition of a firearm in PA (not a long gun or receiver) for the ability to carry concealed or loaded in a vehicle (open or concealed) under a LTCF (license to carry a firearm).

You have made the overall length greater than (>) 26". IANAL but this probably takes it out of the LTCF firearm definition.

Interesting as Feds say no to conceal on person (per your post) but PA might not have a law against that. If you have a LTCF you could have vehicle carry loaded (not sure of Federal law on that though). Over 26" and it changes things quite a bit.

[EvoRich]

I think you may be mixing state statute and federal law. Each have their own definitions and requirements. You must be able to satisfy both and each.

A good example is medical marijuana. Many states legalised it but not at the Federal level. It is quite possible the Federal level can be satisfied but not at the state level, too.

In PA, I believe your gun must fit the definition of a firearm in PA (not a long gun or receiver) for the ability to carry concealed or loaded in a vehicle (open or concealed) under a LTCF (license to carry a firearm).

You have made the overall length greater than (>) 26". IANAL but this probably takes it out of the LTCF firearm definition.

Interesting as Feds say no to conceal on person (per your post) but PA might not have a law against that. If you have a LTCF you could have vehicle carry loaded (not sure of Federal law on that though). Over 26" and it changes things quite a bit.

So federally, an AR “pistol” with an OAL of over 26” is considered a firearm. But in PA and AR pistol with and OAL under 26” is considered a firearm and a pistol at the same time as well as considered a pistol federally. If I understand correctly, to legally carry an AR pistol under an LTCF in PA, OAL must be under 26”? Any thing over 26” falls into what category? Certainly not a rifle as it does not have a stock. Possibly an AOW however I didn’t think AOW’s were regulated at a state level.

So even despite my vertical grip being installed on a greater than 26” AR “firearm” (federally), it would be illegal to carry in PA?

I feel like the only way to legally carry an AR pistol in PA would be to have less than 26” OAL and on top of that, no vertical grip to satisfy federal law since it’s under 26”.

Not to mention, the legality of measuring an AR pistol is not officially defined by the ATF or in PA for that matter as it’s argued it’s either from the end of the barrl threads to the end of the buffer tube, or to the end of the brace. Most people have the idea it’s to the end of the buffer tube, where as some people have the idea its to the end of the brace fully extended (if adjustable) as a rifle would be measured with its stock fully extended.

Logic dictates it’d be at the end of the buffer tube since braces are typically easily removable, however there are ATF letters stating that it is indeed measured at the end of the brace. Which would make mostly any braced 10.5” barreled pistol as greater than 26”. But no official statement as how to measure pistols with braces.

So really how are these laws enforced? It seems like any enforcing officer would interpret the law in the moment based on their current mood.