Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Y
    When he can't send his kids to college because he's writing YOU checks, he'll have time to reflect...
    The problem is if you are calm and compliant, then you WONT be receiving any checks - because the court will never recognize a simple violation of the 4th (or 2nd) amendment that mildly inconvenienced you as being worthy of damages. To receive real "checks", you'll need to be beaten, shot, or utterly humiliated in front of a large crowd. And the only way for that to happen is to exert your rights from the get go and stand firm. Is that what I would do? Not sure, never been in that situation. Probably not.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    Quote Originally Posted by Royinmontco View Post
    The problem is if you are calm and compliant, then you WONT be receiving any checks - because the court will never recognize a simple violation of the 4th (or 2nd) amendment that mildly inconvenienced you as being worthy of damages. To receive real "checks", you'll need to be beaten, shot, or utterly humiliated in front of a large crowd. And the only way for that to happen is to exert your rights from the get go and stand firm. Is that what I would do? Not sure, never been in that situation. Probably not.
    1. I'm going to stand on my rights without actively resisting.
    2. I ALWAYS have some kind of recording device, and RUNNING when I'm carrying. Ohio's a one party consent state, regardless of the parties.


    And even if I can't bankrupt him outright, I can make his career path bumpier than a Piper Cub trip over the Himalayas, especially if I can prove he has trouble telling the truth. I imagine it's hard to be a cop if no prosecutor will ever let you testify under oath...
    Je suis Charles Martel.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    Quote Originally Posted by Pag23 View Post
    Don't talk to the police...lol
    Exactly. As soon as it become apparent the cop is giving negative vibes, you should leave.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    So... The general consensus is that the gun community (specifically, the carrying community) wants better relations and dialogue with law enforcement, but in the same breath, says not to talk to law enforcement, and to thoroughly crucify them if things don't go 100% correct in an encounter. Did I get that right? That's the vibe I get more and more from this forum.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaulWolf View Post
    So... The general consensus is that the gun community (specifically, the carrying community) wants better relations and dialogue with law enforcement, but in the same breath, says not to talk to law enforcement, and to thoroughly crucify them if things don't go 100% correct in an encounter. Did I get that right? That's the vibe I get more and more from this forum.
    1. I DEMAND that the police obey the laws which they purport to enforce. That's non-negotiable. When they REFUSE to obey the law, I DEMAND that they be punished.
    2. The relationship between the police and the public is an adversarial one, and one of the making by police. If you don't believe me, ask Carolina Obrycka and Charles Kinsey.
    3. If police want to be respected, they should ditch the Black Lives Matter style sociopathy of the police unions. Both exist for EXACTLY the same reason, to create untouchable classes of felons.


    Is THIS what you call an examle of what happens "if things don't go 100% correct in an encounter":


    I don't want "dialogue" with the police. I want them to not commit violent crimes. Anything beyond that is gravy.
    Je suis Charles Martel.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    1. I DEMAND that the police obey the laws which they purport to enforce. That's non-negotiable. When they REFUSE to obey the law, I DEMAND that they be punished.
    2. The relationship between the police and the public is an adversarial one, and one of the making by police. If you don't believe me, ask Carolina Obrycka and Charles Kinsey.
    3. If police want to be respected, they should ditch the Black Lives Matter style sociopathy of the police unions. Both exist for EXACTLY the same reason, to create untouchable classes of felons.


    Is THIS what you call an examle of what happens "if things don't go 100% correct in an encounter":


    I don't want "dialogue" with the police. I want them to not commit violent crimes. Anything beyond that is gravy.
    1. Funny enough, we generally want the same thing. I don't know of any officers or deputies that don't. The same could be said of non-LEOs as well.
    2. Depends on the administration, region, and culture of the region. I've seen an adversarial relationship and I've seen a very cordial one between the citizenry and law enforcement. Blanket statements don't go into the minutia of the relationship between the two, much like blanket statements on entire professions, races, or creeds.
    3. Are you referring to the "thin blue line" that we supposedly hide behind? It happens, I'm sure, but from what I've seen, we tend to be absolutely brutal towards our own who cross over into illegal activity. We might show some sympathy towards our brethren, but we don't excuse illegal behavior. I don't know of any exceptions in my area, and the LEOs I work with hold a fair amount of contempt for anyone who crosses over to "the other side".

    You're dealing with absolutes, and still playing the "us vs. them" game. This doesn't help anything.

    And I'd call that video inexcusable. Thankfully we're not Chicago, IL. If your entire basis for law enforcement is at the extreme end from a region plagued with issues, then you're missing out on quite a few good things that LEOs do for their communities and all the positive encounters/contacts/interactions/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

    We've gone from pick up games of basketball in the projects to serving warrants in the same night. The kids loved it and were smiling and laughing, residents were more than happy to tell us their troubles and we put together plans to help. Hardly adversarial. From there we went to picking up a subject on an arrest warrant, which is adversarial. The blanket statement only holds up for part of that night, and completely disregards the positive outcomes.

    Think how you want, I doubt I'll change your mind, but I do recommend trying to avoid thinking in extremes, or you'll only further the polarization and isolation of the citizenry from law enforcement community (and vice versa).

    ETA:
    For something closer to the original topic, the deputies I work with daily are mostly pro-carry, however you choose to do it, as long as it's done in a responsible manner. I know a couple who are leery about open carry, but only because their experience has been with the types that try to be as in your face about it to stir the pot for attention and a reaction video. The times we have asked to see a LCTF has been because we've had reports of someone behaving suspiciously, and we wanted to make sure everything was in order when we've checked things out. OC alone was not the cause for requesting a LCTF. YMMV.
    Last edited by ShaulWolf; July 10th, 2018 at 12:36 AM.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaulWolf View Post
    1. Funny enough, we generally want the same thing. I don't know of any officers or deputies that don't. The same could be said of non-LEOs as well.
    I dion't know any Black people who want to kill cops. I don't deny that they exist... especially after they've done it on video.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaulWolf View Post
    2. Depends on the administration, region, and culture of the region. I've seen an adversarial relationship and I've seen a very cordial one between the citizenry and law enforcement. Blanket statements don't go into the minutia of the relationship between the two, much like blanket statements on entire professions, races, or creeds.
    It is by definition an adversarial relationship. The degree to which that is so is a function of the organizational culture. Do you deny that that's the case in Chicago, New Orleans or Philadelphia?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaulWolf View Post
    3. Are you referring to the "thin blue line" that we supposedly hide behind? It happens, I'm sure, but from what I've seen, we tend to be absolutely brutal towards our own who cross over into illegal activity. We might show some sympathy towards our brethren, but we don't excuse illegal behavior. I don't know of any exceptions in my area, and the LEOs I work with hold a fair amount of contempt for anyone who crosses over to "the other side".
    The only person to whom the Chicago PD was "absolutely brutal" was the victim in the above video. Not only did Chicago cops engage in an organized campaign of intimidation against the victim, her employer and her co-workers, they engaged in very ostentatious shows of public support for the 300lb. coward who beat her.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaulWolf View Post
    You're dealing with absolutes, and still playing the "us vs. them" game. This doesn't help anything.
    There's no "gray area" in the murder of Kathryn Johnston, beating of Carolina Obrycka or the attempted killings of Emma Hernandez, Margie Carranza and David Perdue. The cops lined up behind the perpetrators and against the victims. For every one sentence "condemnation" of the barmaid beating, there were twenty whiny screeds about how the video of the beating was being shown "too much" (ie. AT ALL).

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaulWolf View Post
    And I'd call that video inexcusable. Thankfully we're not Chicago, IL. If your entire basis for law enforcement is at the extreme end from a region plagued with issues, then you're missing out on quite a few good things that LEOs do for their communities and all the positive encounters/contacts/interactions/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
    I don't live in Amish country. I grew up in Chicago where in 1919, the Chicago PD refused to defend the Black community from White arsonists and rioters (including a future Democrat mayor). I live next door to Cleveland, where in 1986 the Cleveland PD professed to be unable to see a race riot, but was magically able to see the Black man who used a shotgun to break it up.
    Je suis Charles Martel.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post


    I don't live in Amish country. I grew up in Chicago where in 1919, the Chicago PD refused to defend the Black community from White arsonists and rioters (including a future Democrat mayor). I live next door to Cleveland, where in 1986 the Cleveland PD professed to be unable to see a race riot, but was magically able to see the Black man who used a shotgun to break it up.
    And I grew up and live in Philadelphia, where presently over 98% of the shootings and murders are committed by young black males, but the police are the real problem. Fuck outta here.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    And I grew up and live in Philadelphia, where presently over 98% of the shootings and murders are committed by young black males, but the police are the real problem. Fuck outta here.
    Oh, were you talking to Black Lies Matter?

    In Philadelphia the police are A problem... unless you think robbing bodegas isn't a problem.

    If you're Black and living in Philadelphia (or Chicago) you're FAR more likely to be shot by another Black person than a cop.

    If you're Black (or White or Asian) and living in Philadelphia (or Atlanta or Chicago) you're FAR more likely to be falsely arrested or have false evidence or perjured testimony used against you by a cop than a young Black man.

    A young Black man could well have beaten that barmaid.

    A young Black man would NOT have had the rank and file of the Chicago PD line up in support of him.

    Contemporary Black culture is very sick... just as is contemporary police culture.

    Black Lies Matter and the FOP are perfect analogues.

    Gee, sorry I couldn't live down to the FOP talking points...
    Je suis Charles Martel.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Oc conversion with a policeman

    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Oh, were you talking to Black Lies Matter?

    In Philadelphia the police are A problem... unless you think robbing bodegas isn't a problem.

    If you're Black and living in Philadelphia (or Chicago) you're FAR more likely to be shot by another Black person than a cop.

    If you're Black (or White or Asian) and living in Philadelphia (or Atlanta or Chicago) you're FAR more likely to be falsely arrested or have false evidence or perjured testimony used against you by a cop than a young Black man.

    A young Black man could well have beaten that barmaid.

    A young Black man would NOT have had the rank and file of the Chicago PD line up in support of him.

    Contemporary Black culture is very sick... just as is contemporary police culture.

    Black Lies Matter and the FOP are perfect analogues.

    Gee, sorry I couldn't live down to the FOP talking points...
    Please tell me the outcome of the so called bodega robberies in Philadelphia.

    I have no idea why a cop would falsely accuse a minority of a crime. In Philadelphia there is no shortage of actual criminals we can arrest without commiting perjury.

    Your example of the Chicago PD and the barmaid is getting old. No one I know of thinks that incident is acceptable in any way. I don’t know what the Chicago FOP was thinking, but they don’t represent all of the cops in the U. S. So drop that angle already.

    Your comparison of BLM to a Police labor union, the FOP, is an insult.

    Contemporary police culture is being redefined everyday. Many folks are going to get the police department they want.
    You, may be armed and be able to defend yourself to a degree, against a certain threat, most others are not. The phrase, watch what you ask for, you just may get it, comes to mind.

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