Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #81
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by TangoBravo605 View Post
    The following links might be useful to this discussion:

    http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...tn=2&subsctn=0 (Aggravated Assault)

    https://lawofselfdefense.com/jury_in...-self-defense/

    https://lawofselfdefense.com/jury_in...stle-doctrine/

    FWIW, it is the Jury Instructions where the rubber meets the road, as it were.

    And for those of you who are interested in pursuing more PA State Specific information, check out the following link:

    http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=336392

    I know both attorneys who teach this class, each of whom is knowledgeable about PA's Justification Defense.
    Whoa whoa whoa, we'll have none of this getting a thread back on topic after a spectacular derailment.
    Life has a melody.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    But it's not true in any sense that if you point it you must shoot, not legally or tactically or in practice.
    I think I'm going to go with what he said.

    Also, I think only one or two of you actually answered what was asked. Oh well I still enjoyed reading all of this.
    To add onto the new subject though, I have two different guns I carry. One has a round in the chamber because I can close the slide with it being in there and the other does not have one in the chamber because I can not close the slide with it being in there and have to rack the slide to get it ready. I know how both of said guns work and feel comfortable carrying either one. Both are 9mm because I only have to purchase one type of ammunition for both guns which makes it nice and easy.
    I need a better signature than this...

  3. #83
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneCC View Post
    I keep them in a locker when they are not holstered on my person or are put into a range bag. I will remove bolts/slides or open cylinders when they're bagged for the range. I have a gun locker in my car for the EDC, which is checked for clearance, then the piece of oriented away from me and passengers.

    I don't have ADs for this reason.

    Even in the house locker I orient them to prevent ADs from being a problem. Good practices lead to good results.


    "Are you willing to destroy your ceiling, floor, or wall?"

    I don't aim at the ceiling, floor or wall. I don't "cover" them if I put them into my locker.

    I don't believe in leaving firearms out in the house. I don't understand people who leave firearms lying around the house. I consider such behavior to be complacent.

    Complacent people get hurt.
    You do realize your locker isn't a portal to a dimensionless void right? The guns are still pointed at something when they're in there. The guns are pointed at something when you put them in and take them out. The gun in your car locker is still pointed at something, either the floor or the dozens of other cars, buildings, and people you drive past. I would also hazard a guess that when you buy guns you pick them up to see how they feel, they're pointed at something when you do that too.

    This is the problem with people acting like stuff is super literal. It isn't, and you don't treat it like it is.
    NOBODY NEEDS ASSAULT SPEECH

  4. #84
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    You need to stop.

    No, you can't wander around randomly pointing guns at "people".

    Yes, you may be legally and tactically justified in pointing a gun defensively at an aggressor. It's done millions of times per year in the USA. There's even a term for it, "defensive displays". We don't have millions of defensive shootings every year, so obviously, what's happening is people feel threatened, they produce a gun in a defensive manner, and usually, the perp flees.

    https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth...nt-be-accurate

    That's just reality. It doesn't change by playing word games, by conflating defensive displays with "pointing guns at people" or whatever.

    If an attacker, or multiple attackers, come at you and you have the time to point a gun at them instead of blazing away with your Mozambique drill, then I recommend it, because it's easier to defend you against "pointing a scary gun" than to defend you against multiple homicide charges.

    If the defensive display doesn't work, and you genuinely feel that you're about to be raped or kidnapped or maimed or killed, then by all means, fire that gun that you're pointing at them, assuming that the various legal conditions apply.

    But it's not true in any sense that if you point it you must shoot, not legally or tactically or in practice.

    Port of arms display is also a defensive brandishing, Phil. I do believe that covering a human being with the muzzle of my firearm is a violation of good practice in shooting and is asking for trouble under the heavy stress that accompanies a self defense situation. I'm especially emphatic about the stress - I build sight pictures during acquiring the target and will begin to take up trigger slack. I train routinely on this work.


    Pointing a firearm at someone whom I am not in the process of shooting breaks my tempo and risks putting me into a place where my training won't work right. I train myself to aim and fire in one motion. So now my tempo is broken under stress, what good can that do me? I rely upon my training to get my through, why mess with it?

    Maybe some here have menacing conversations with their targets at the range, just so that they learn to brandish that firearm at the bad person? That would be worth seeing. They would certainly be training more honestly for what they aim to do than firing at the range while hoping to frighten on the street.

    I have had some Japanese martial arts training. Weapons training includes an inculcation of respect for the weapon, not to deploy it without the intention of using it. This served the Samurai well, I think it will serve me well too. Samurai would grasp their sword and very slightly draw it while engaging their object. They could draw very fast and cut surely.

    I believe that Cooper's rules are useful and valid baselines for training and behaving under heavy stress conditions. They are more than range rules - they are a philosophy of deployment and engagement. They agree with my own assessment of past altercations and problems. I am comfortable in the fast transition from port arms to deployment and find it natural to stand in port arms for long periods of time without feeling any intensity.

    All of these coordinate into a practice that I believe gives me the best odds of getting off of the X while stopping bad people who might decide I need more attention. I can carry safely in gun hostile areas with little worry of AD.


    Phil, thanks for your time.
    Last edited by GeneCC; June 20th, 2018 at 07:34 PM.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde1993 View Post
    I think I'm going to go with what he said.

    Also, I think only one or two of you actually answered what was asked. Oh well I still enjoyed reading all of this.
    To add onto the new subject though, I have two different guns I carry. One has a round in the chamber because I can close the slide with it being in there and the other does not have one in the chamber because I can not close the slide with it being in there and have to rack the slide to get it ready. I know how both of said guns work and feel comfortable carrying either one. Both are 9mm because I only have to purchase one type of ammunition for both guns which makes it nice and easy.

    There is a lot of controversy about this topic.

    The Israelis and Soviets/Russians practice condition three carry under some circumstances. The Israelis have drilled to "punch" the handgun to cycle the slide. The Israeli military deploys using civilian mass transport to reach rally points from where they deploy. They are very concerned about ADs in buses.

    The Russian MVD will use condition three with handguns, as at least the Makarov can be "butt" cycled by pressing the slide against a belt and cycled. I've have seen some evidence that some Soviet and Russian forces preferred to carry their duty firearms on condition three because the AK-47 has a very loud "clack" when the safety is removed. In contrast the action can be very quietly cycled.

    To me it's a percentages thing - do you want that extra fraction of a second or do you want to avoid an AD?

    My solution is a small revolver. The 38 special is a nice intermediate round that while not suitable for bears will stop violence.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneCC View Post
    There is a lot of controversy about this topic.

    The Israelis and Soviets/Russians practice condition three carry under some circumstances. The Israelis have drilled to "punch" the handgun to cycle the slide. The Israeli military deploys using civilian mass transport to reach rally points from where they deploy. They are very concerned about ADs in buses.

    The Russian MVD will use condition three with handguns, as at least the Makarov can be "butt" cycled by pressing the slide against a belt and cycled. I've have seen some evidence that some Soviet and Russian forces preferred to carry their duty firearms on condition three because the AK-47 has a very loud "clack" when the safety is removed. In contrast the action can be very quietly cycled.
    Israeli doctrine about carrying with a empty chamber comes from them issuing large numbers of tokarevs and only wanting one manual of arms for everyone. Russian carrying with empty chambers is because makarovs aren't drop safe, both are due to equipment limitations not because its good doctrine.
    NOBODY NEEDS ASSAULT SPEECH

  7. #87
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneCC View Post
    Port of arms display is also a defensive brandishing, Phil. I do believe that covering a human being with the muzzle of my firearm is a violation of good practice in shooting and is asking for trouble under the heavy stress that accompanies a self defense situation. I'm especially emphatic about the stress - I build sight pictures during acquiring the target and will begin to take up trigger slack. I train routinely on this work.


    Pointing a firearm at someone whom I am not in the process of shooting breaks my tempo and risks putting me into a place where my training won't work right. I train myself to aim and fire in one motion. So now my tempo is broken under stress, what good can that do me? I rely upon my training to get my through, why mess with it?

    Maybe some here have menacing conversations with their targets at the range, just so that they learn to brandish that firearm at the bad person? That would be worth seeing. They would certainly be training more honestly for what they aim to do than firing at the range while hoping to frighten on the street.

    I have had some Japanese martial arts training. Weapons training includes an inculcation of respect for the weapon, not to deploy it without the intention of using it. This served the Samurai well, I think it will serve me well too. Samurai would grasp their sword and very slightly draw it while engaging their object. They could draw very fast and cut surely.

    I believe that Cooper's rules are useful and valid baselines for training and behaving under heavy stress conditions. They are more than range rules - they are a philosophy of deployment and engagement. They agree with my own assessment of past altercations and problems. I am comfortable in the fast transition from port arms to deployment and find it natural to stand in port arms for long periods of time without feeling any intensity.

    All of these coordinate into a practice that I believe gives me the best odds of getting off of the X while stopping bad people who might decide I need more attention. I can carry safely in gun hostile areas with little worry of AD.


    Phil, thanks for your time.
    You train to begin taking up trigger slack before you are on target? Like, as you are swinging into position you are taking up the slack? Am I understanding you correctly? If so, how can you think that is a good practice, regarding stress? This is a clear violation of Cooper's law to have your finger out of the trigger guard until your sights are on target and you are ready to fire. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, I hope so.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    I'll venture this, hopefully to add to the discussion. In Court, and with reference to http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...8&div=0&chpt=5, and, particularly the PA Specific Jury instructions, Cooper's comments don't mean shit. In PA, you point a weapon at an individual in the service of what you regard as self-protection, your most highly defensible position is that you indeed can articulate, authentic and demonstrate, in Court, that you were justified in committing aggravated assault.

    What does that mean? That means that you had a reasonable belief (can your specify the basis for that belief?) that you were approaching a condition of imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death, that you had done nothing to provoke the circumstance, that you were not engaged in criminal activity at the time of the confrontation, that the individual whom you were confronting was not a police officer carrying out his duties, that you had a legal right to be where you were at the moment of confrontation, that you could not retreat in complete safety, or, that you were at the time of confrontation occupying "highly defensible property" (Be advised: PA is a "soft" stand your ground state), and that drawing your weapon was proportional to the offered threat, IOW, you are by presenting your weapon (position Sul, or not) "per se" presenting deadly force and by PA law the force with which you must have been presented was approaching deadly, i.e., not a hint, not a suggestion, not a future occurrence, not a bunch of "mouth out, ghetto bullshit," posturing, or preening that "my dick is longer than yours." In which cases you would only have been justified in responding in like kind. And that will call on your judgmental abilities. And you had better be able to explain that to a trier of fact so that you sound like the "reasonable and prudent person."

    IOW, you had better be in a position where you can argue, should everything go South, why you could have used deadly force but didn't, or, alternatively, if you DID use deadly force, why? All the bullshit about where the fuck your gun is pointed while it's in its safe, holster, glove box, console, AIWB, etc., is utterly beside the f'g point, as is the bullshit about empty chamber or not. PA is not Israel. Point a gun at somebody, you'd better damn well be within the law, or, you'll pay the price. You want to learn more about this, Massad Ayoob will be at Harrisburg Hunters and Anglers this coming August. Spend the $ to learn or, suffer the consequences, if the SHTF. Ayoob answered the question: "How long does a gunfight last?" "3 seconds to a lifetime."

    Be advised: IANAL. I'm not offering legal advice. And, unlike as with my private students, I'm not instructing you as to what the most defensible options are as to what to do. That's your choice. For god's sake, just get educated. And yes, I'm not diplomatic

  9. #89
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    What should I do with my tactical wheelbarrow after a shooting?
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ungawa's M16A1 is for sale, see the NFA ads! http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.ph...06#post3835606

  10. #90
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    Default Re: What would/ should you do after pulling your gun on someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    What should I do with my tactical wheelbarrow after a shooting?
    Depends whether or not you have a holocaust cloak among your assets at the time.
    Last edited by internet troll; June 20th, 2018 at 10:54 PM.
    Proof Armed citizens make a difference. http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=316012

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