Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    I should be closing on a property in Pocono Pines within the next month. This will be my secondary home that I will spend 2-3 days a week at for me and my fiance. I have to remain a primary resident of NYC due to my city job. My question is, are there other ways of showing ownership in PA that would allow me to purchase a gun to keep in PA? Or, is the only way to purchase, to have a PA drivers license?

    Thanks

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    Default Re: PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    Quote Originally Posted by jljordann922 View Post
    I should be closing on a property in Pocono Pines within the next month. This will be my secondary home that I will spend 2-3 days a week at for me and my fiance. I have to remain a primary resident of NYC due to my city job. My question is, are there other ways of showing ownership in PA that would allow me to purchase a gun to keep in PA? Or, is the only way to purchase, to have a PA drivers license?

    Thanks
    Provided you make the PA location a secondary HOME - no just merely owning a property - then you can buy firearms in PA with out-of-state ID.

    Quote Originally Posted by tl_3237 View Post
    Provided you have a bona fide Pa residence then, for Federal Firearm Law purposes (18 USC Ch 44), under 27 CFR 478.11 (see post #1) you are a Pa resident during the time you occupy that Pa residence. With that established then you can legally purchase firearms (handguns and longarms) just like any other Pa resident. AFAIK there are no Pa state laws that would prevent the purchase.

    As I pointed out in post #3, whether a particular FFL will participate is an individual business decision. Some may be leery about participating considering you have ID from a hoplophobic state.

    Assuming that you keep the firearm in Pa at all times then the cautions concerning NJ transport mentioned in this thread do not apply.
    Check out amongst others: Multi-state residency, purchase rules


    From another thread: I am a part time PA resident, can I buy a firearm?



    Quote Originally Posted by tl_3237 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by phil21 View Post
    Hello all,
    I am currently a NY resident (my Drivers License) and own a home in Pennsylvania (Lake Ariel). I was wondering if I am legally allowed to purchase a gun, which will stay locked up in Pennsylvania at all times. I have proof of my address in PA.
    Can I legally purchase a handgun? I have no criminal record or anything that would prevent me from being allowed to.
    Thank you so much,
    Phil




    If you use that Lake Ariel property as a second home then you should be able to purchase firearms in Pa, both longarms and handguns, while you are in residence there even though it is not your primary residence. I would advise keeping any firearms in the Pa home unless you are vacating same - then you have to be concerned about NY laws to import them into you NY residence.

    AFAIK there are no Pa laws regarding firearm purchasing that would preclude applying the 27 CFR 478.11 definition of residency - whether an FFL will participate is an individual business decision but the legality is well established.

    Remember that ownership does not necessarily equate with residency. The later requires that you use the Pa property as a 'home' and reside in it at least part of the year.



    For purposes of the FEDERAL firearms laws (18 USC Ch 44) the following definition of residency is used:

    27 CFR 478.11 State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

    Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

    Example 2. A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

    Example 3. A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.

    Example 4. A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.
    Also from the ATF ruling 2010-6:

    ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and Answer B12, page 179. Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or off-campus housing is located.
    Last edited by tl_3237; June 8th, 2018 at 03:07 PM.
    IANAL

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    Default Re: PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    Thank you so much for that! I should be good then after reading the information.

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    Default Re: PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    Quote Originally Posted by jljordann922 View Post
    Thank you so much for that! I should be good then after reading the information.
    You're welcome. If you have trouble finding an FFL that will sell to you, the other option is a private purchase of longarms (not pistols) from another Pa resident. This also is legal without using an FFL while you are residing in your Pa secondary home, make the transaction within Pa and are not otherwise a prohibited person.

    Would be of interest if some of the FFLs on this forum would discuss their policy as to how someone like the OP would sufficiently demonstrate residency, as opposed to mere ownership, at a secondary Pa home.
    IANAL

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    Default Re: PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    I was asked to chime in on this topic since I am a PA FFL/SOT who has done numerous transfers for people who are, by law/regulation, dual state residents. And yes, I have several customers who are NY and PA residents.

    As said, just OWNING land in PA does not make you a dual state resident. You must have some type of a residence with a street address. You must live in this residence when you are in PA (cannot just have the residence to rent/lease to someone else). You must also pay real estate taxes on this residence (local, school, county, etc. taxes). I require a copy of the latest real estate tax form (to be attached to the 4473 and SP4-113 (if needed) when I do the transfer.

    Yes, I also know that a person could give me the required documents and use the address of the property when filling out the forms and not actually be living in the residence. If they do that, the onus is on them and if caught they pay the price, not me (have already discussed this with both ATF and PSP supervisors). Both agencies told me to use my best judgement. When someone approaches/contacts me about doing this type of transfer, I ask a lot of questions and try to get a good feel for the person. All of my customers that fall into this category have been above board and supplied me with any/all information I requested, they know, because I tell them, the consequences if they lie. I have certain questions and do certain things for a new dual state resident to determine if they are being truthful. Sorry, I will not divulge what I do, suffice to say that I have never had a problem with anyone becoming a customer and I have never had to say no to (yet).

    All of my dual state residents are long time customers and I do trust them. They all know that they cannot take the firearm back to their other residence if it is not legal in that state.

    I in fact have a dual state (NY and PA) who is buying a machine gun. Perfectly legal to do, all paperwork was done while he was living in PA, and when approved the transfer will be done while he is living in PA and all the forms will have the PA address and he knows the MG can never go into NY (he has a more than adequate storage "area" in his PA residence where the firearms he has purchased as a PA resident will be safe.

    It's really not a big deal if things are done according to Federal and PA law. That said, many FFL's just don't want to handle dual state residents and that is their choice and business decision.

    As tl_3237 said above, the other option is buying a long gun from a private party. That said, there may be private sellers who will not want to do this (mainly because they don't know the laws). Don't argue with them, it won't change their minds.

    If someone has more questions that I may be able to help with, just send me a PM.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

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    Default Re: PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Xringshooter View Post
    I was asked to chime in on this topic since I am a PA FFL/SOT who has done numerous transfers for people who are, by law/regulation, dual state residents. And yes, I have several customers who are NY and PA residents.

    As said, just OWNING land in PA does not make you a dual state resident. You must have some type of a residence with a street address. You must live in this residence when you are in PA (cannot just have the residence to rent/lease to someone else). You must also pay real estate taxes on this residence (local, school, county, etc. taxes). I require a copy of the latest real estate tax form (to be attached to the 4473 and SP4-113 (if needed) when I do the transfer.

    Yes, I also know that a person could give me the required documents and use the address of the property when filling out the forms and not actually be living in the residence. If they do that, the onus is on them and if caught they pay the price, not me (have already discussed this with both ATF and PSP supervisors). Both agencies told me to use my best judgement. When someone approaches/contacts me about doing this type of transfer, I ask a lot of questions and try to get a good feel for the person. All of my customers that fall into this category have been above board and supplied me with any/all information I requested, they know, because I tell them, the consequences if they lie. I have certain questions and do certain things for a new dual state resident to determine if they are being truthful. Sorry, I will not divulge what I do, suffice to say that I have never had a problem with anyone becoming a customer and I have never had to say no to (yet).

    All of my dual state residents are long time customers and I do trust them. They all know that they cannot take the firearm back to their other residence if it is not legal in that state.

    I in fact have a dual state (NY and PA) who is buying a machine gun. Perfectly legal to do, all paperwork was done while he was living in PA, and when approved the transfer will be done while he is living in PA and all the forms will have the PA address and he knows the MG can never go into NY (he has a more than adequate storage "area" in his PA residence where the firearms he has purchased as a PA resident will be safe.

    It's really not a big deal if things are done according to Federal and PA law. That said, many FFL's just don't want to handle dual state residents and that is their choice and business decision.

    As tl_3237 said above, the other option is buying a long gun from a private party. That said, there may be private sellers who will not want to do this (mainly because they don't know the laws). Don't argue with them, it won't change their minds.

    If someone has more questions that I may be able to help with, just send me a PM.
    Thanks Xringshooter (rep button broke). Your perspective as an FFL provides the insight that this thread needed to be complete.
    Last edited by tl_3237; June 10th, 2018 at 10:54 AM.
    IANAL

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    Default Re: PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Xringshooter View Post
    I was asked to chime in on this topic since I am a PA FFL/SOT who has done numerous transfers for people who are, by law/regulation, dual state residents. And yes, I have several customers who are NY and PA residents.

    As said, just OWNING land in PA does not make you a dual state resident. You must have some type of a residence with a street address. You must live in this residence when you are in PA (cannot just have the residence to rent/lease to someone else). You must also pay real estate taxes on this residence (local, school, county, etc. taxes). I require a copy of the latest real estate tax form (to be attached to the 4473 and SP4-113 (if needed) when I do the transfer.

    Yes, I also know that a person could give me the required documents and use the address of the property when filling out the forms and not actually be living in the residence. If they do that, the onus is on them and if caught they pay the price, not me (have already discussed this with both ATF and PSP supervisors). Both agencies told me to use my best judgement. When someone approaches/contacts me about doing this type of transfer, I ask a lot of questions and try to get a good feel for the person. All of my customers that fall into this category have been above board and supplied me with any/all information I requested, they know, because I tell them, the consequences if they lie. I have certain questions and do certain things for a new dual state resident to determine if they are being truthful. Sorry, I will not divulge what I do, suffice to say that I have never had a problem with anyone becoming a customer and I have never had to say no to (yet).

    All of my dual state residents are long time customers and I do trust them. They all know that they cannot take the firearm back to their other residence if it is not legal in that state.

    I in fact have a dual state (NY and PA) who is buying a machine gun. Perfectly legal to do, all paperwork was done while he was living in PA, and when approved the transfer will be done while he is living in PA and all the forms will have the PA address and he knows the MG can never go into NY (he has a more than adequate storage "area" in his PA residence where the firearms he has purchased as a PA resident will be safe.

    It's really not a big deal if things are done according to Federal and PA law. That said, many FFL's just don't want to handle dual state residents and that is their choice and business decision.

    As tl_3237 said above, the other option is buying a long gun from a private party. That said, there may be private sellers who will not want to do this (mainly because they don't know the laws). Don't argue with them, it won't change their minds.

    If someone has more questions that I may be able to help with, just send me a PM.
    Great insight...I will definitely have a home there and will reside there so I should be fine in that aspect. My only hold up may be finding an FFL that will sell to a dual state resident. However, I am going to work on closing this house sale first and will cross that bridge in a couple of months. Thanks again everyone.

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    Default Re: PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    Quote Originally Posted by jljordann922 View Post
    Great insight...I will definitely have a home there and will reside there so I should be fine in that aspect. My only hold up may be finding an FFL that will sell to a dual state resident. However, I am going to work on closing this house sale first and will cross that bridge in a couple of months. Thanks again everyone.
    One of my NY dual state resident customers lives in the East Stroudsburg, that's good 2 1/2-3 hours (depending on traffic and the route taken) from me but no one in that area wanted anything to do with him. He found I would help him and he is now a client of mine. He will also be coming to the Fall 2018 FOAC Gun Bash (already bought his tickets) with his son and a friend (an NYCPD detective). If he wins anything it will transfer through me.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

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    Default Re: PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    Props to Ron for knowing his stuff and being willing to do what is, after all, perfectly legal!

    Honestly, if I were an FFL (I'm not), I'd probably be more in the 'sorry you're too much trouble' camp. In my own business (motorcycle parts) we don't ship overseas for much the same reason. It's just too complicated, too much hassle and too many ways it could go wrong for us (and did, when we used to do it). I'd rather just take the 98.8% of domestic business that's quick, easy and predictable. Am I 'dissing' perfectly-good international customers because of a few shysters? Yeah. I regret that, but as a business decision, it sticks anyway.

    That I 'get' those with that "sorry... but no" POV just makes me appreciate FFL's that are both fully informed of the law (I've run into a few that weren't) and willing to go that extra mile for customers.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin.

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    Default Re: PA Secondary Home Owner...Primary Residence NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Xringshooter View Post
    One of my NY dual state resident customers lives in the East Stroudsburg, that's good 2 1/2-3 hours (depending on traffic and the route taken) from me but no one in that area wanted anything to do with him. He found I would help him and he is now a client of mine. He will also be coming to the Fall 2018 FOAC Gun Bash (already bought his tickets) with his son and a friend (an NYCPD detective). If he wins anything it will transfer through me.
    I don't know if it would make any local FFL more comfortable but I did just get approved in NYC for my Rifle/Shotgun license, which takes about 4 months and a pretty strict background check. Then again, it may make no difference. However, if I do find a lot of trouble finding someone, you will find me back here for a recommendation....perhaps I'd take the drive out to you if you'd be willing. Just let me know. Thanks

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