Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    Need some input on a mini RDS.

    My gut tells me to buy an Aimpoint H1. I'm probably going to mount it on an ultimak rail and it would be going on an AK.

    However... since I have this innate obsession with trying new shit, and being fairly poor. I would like to be able to move it on to other toys and see if a RDS on said weapon would be worth it's own investment.

    Which makes me lean towards something like a Burris FFII which I *CAN* put on a pistol. The H1 would kind of be out of place.

    If after doing so, it is so astounding that I must have it that way. Then I'll buy another to put back on the AK, or shotgun, or whatever else this thing may find itself on.

    I'm not a military contractor, nor do I kick doors for a living. But I would like something that can get wet and not vaporize itself like K-mart tennis shoes. Maybe handle a bump here or there, but I'm not going to be doing push ups with the rifle on the optic.


    I enjoy the inexpensive RDS I have on an AR a lot, and I would like to try it out in some other configurations and weapons. While doing that, I would also like to buy something worth owning for a while. So whatever it is, it has to be able to handle life on a 12 gauge to a .22.

    Places this sight could end up.
    AK's. All are 7.62x39mm
    AR's. 5.56 through 7.62
    12 gauge shotgun / 870 TE / Saiga
    .45 or 9mm caliber FNP/Glock
    .22WMR hand gun

    But seriously who knows. It could end up on an inverted scope ring in tandem with magnified optics. If I was JUST going to put a RDS on an AK I would (cry like a little broke ass bitch) and buy the H1/ultimak and call it a day.

    Batteries last years. Yes please. That's what I want on a rifle like that.

    For the same price however, I could outfit about 3-4 instead with night sights... I do however shoot so much better with a RDS. Even over the AR's irons. And with an AK I think I could REALLY improve my shooting over the iron sights since I do not get to put thousands of rounds down range every few months through an AK like I used to. And, a RDS solves my low light issue the same way, and lends to a better FOV & eyes on target. For me this is huge because I am near sighted and if I can focus completely on the target, and not back and forth between the front post and target... my eyes don't fight me at all.

    So...

    If I put a Docter, or Burris FF, RMR - etc on an ultimak rail - on an AK... will I destroy it? (The rail is the gas tube on an AK, and they get HOT) Anyone know which of the mini reflex type sights is the best value? Strength / features for the $? Battery life? Ease of use?

    I just want to be able to try it on a few things to see how much I like it. I can always find it a home 'not' on an AK. That said, I'd like to also not spend $500 on this sight. If I'm spending that $ I pretty much want an aimpoint. I've considered buying a $75 Primary Arms sight to use as my "mass tester". But I know it's going to end up on 'something' permanently. And I think you can still get something a lot better for maybe $100 more.

    Am I wrong?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    I've got a PA Micro on the US Palm optic specific top cover. I'm no door kicker either but, I've been doing a couple matches lately and being more rough on my equipment than I ever was before. Not a hiccup. It runs. Thats it.

    EvoRich has one on an Ultimak, maybe he'll be along to comment. I'm around quite a bit and dont ever remember hearing anything negative from him concerning his setup though.

    The beauty of the PA is the price, as you know. Which in my eyes makes it perfect to be the test subject to see if you really want to drop the coin for the Aimpoint eventually.

    The SPARC, not sure if I'd get one. I've heard good things as for reliability and maintaining zero. I thought I heard something about them NOT co-witnessing though. I forget but' I would look for reviews before buying. For me they kinda fall into the not cheap and not too far from the cost of an Aimpoint area. They do come with a thread in 2x magnifier which might seem like a plus for some. IDK.

    As for the mini reflex/RMR style red dots, i'm not sure. The dots on alot of them are quite large. 8moa (somebody might offer them with a smaller dot) but that seems big to me and more suited to a deffensive pistol rather than a rifle. That is completely subjective though, you might like a bigger dot than me. The heat from the Ultimak kinda worries me with these little sights. Unless you'd buck up for the RMR. Shit, who knows though. Maybe some of the cheaper versions of these would hold up to the heat just like the PA Micro.

    Leupold has the DeltaPoint which is supposed to be very good and come in a little cheaper than the RMR. Might be worth looking into.

    Another question is would you ever really have your slides milled out and supressor height sights installed to do it *the right way* on a pistol?

    They would probably be very nice on a shotgun though and since you point a shotgun it doesnt matter about blocking the sights or co-witness.

    You got some research to do and some choices to make. Good luck.

    On the budget, I'd probably get the PA Micro and the DeltaPoint. Then you'll get to see if you like using the micro and possibly get that Aimpoint some day. And you'll also get the mini reflex to move around between all the toys.

    Hope I helped, even if it was only a little
    and to the dust you shall return

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    Default Re: mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    I have used a Burris Fastfire II on numerous platforms, it's a good optic on a long gun, but IMO no mini HUD type sight is suitable for defensive use on a pistol without LOTS and LOTS of presentation practice.

    Burris is about to introduce the Fastfire III to market in the coming weeks. Might want to just wait for that one.

    IMO, Don't waste your money on an Aimpoint unless you plan on HALO jumping into a swamp and low crawling 30 miles to your objective in a monsoon. Same for Trijicon....super overpriced products with capabilities that no typical shooter will ever need.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    Quote Originally Posted by brownman View Post
    I've got a PA Micro on the US Palm optic specific top cover. I'm no door kicker either but, I've been doing a couple matches lately and being more rough on my equipment than I ever was before. Not a hiccup. It runs. Thats it.

    Are you talking about the aimpoint clone, or the open pane type reflex sight?

    EvoRich has one on an Ultimak, maybe he'll be along to comment. I'm around quite a bit and dont ever remember hearing anything negative from him concerning his setup though.

    Me and Rich chat from time to time about stuff. (We both have evo's.) Maybe I can get him in here and tell me his thoughts.

    The beauty of the PA is the price, as you know. Which in my eyes makes it perfect to be the test subject to see if you really want to drop the coin for the Aimpoint eventually.

    Agree. But if I were going to be buying a PA sight, it would be the reflex type. Not the actual H1/T1 clone. And from what I understand those don't actually ever truly turn 'off'. And to replace the batteries the sight has to come off the mount? Correct? This was gay to me. And why I figured for $100 more I could get a Burris, Delta-point, J-point etc.

    The SPARC, not sure if I'd get one. I've heard good things as for reliability and maintaining zero. I thought I heard something about them NOT co-witnessing though. I forget but' I would look for reviews before buying. For me they kinda fall into the not cheap and not too far from the cost of an Aimpoint area. They do come with a thread in 2x magnifier which might seem like a plus for some. IDK.

    I've looked at the SPARC. I would put it on an AR. If I were AR shopping I would have already bought it. It doesn't do me any good on an AK though. So it's out.

    As for the mini reflex/RMR style red dots, i'm not sure. The dots on alot of them are quite large. 8moa (somebody might offer them with a smaller dot) but that seems big to me and more suited to a deffensive pistol rather than a rifle. That is completely subjective though, you might like a bigger dot than me. The heat from the Ultimak kinda worries me with these little sights. Unless you'd buck up for the RMR. Shit, who knows though. Maybe some of the cheaper versions of these would hold up to the heat just like the PA Micro.

    Agree. I want a concise small dot on an AK. 1-2MOA would be best. But I've used up to 5MOA on a rifle and it's still easier to use than a front sight post of any thickness. (IMO) So even if it were an 8MOA dot, I'm sure I could still use it without issue.


    Leupold has the DeltaPoint which is supposed to be very good and come in a little cheaper than the RMR. Might be worth looking into.

    Another question is would you ever really have your slides milled out and supressor height sights installed to do it *the right way* on a pistol?

    Yes I would. I regret every day not buying the Tactical version of FNP45. I've considered selling it at a loss and buying the tactical version. Then I decided I no longer care and will most likely re-organize/prioritize some hand gun shit and will probably be picking up a Glock in .45 as well. That WILL be my toy. As I can make it a 10mm etc if I want. And yes, I WILL send it out to OST to get milled. But, I may try finding a PMR-30 some time soon too, to try it on before I hack up a Glock.

    They would probably be very nice on a shotgun though and since you point a shotgun it doesnt matter about blocking the sights or co-witness.

    My 870 tactical express is just a bead sighted barrel. (Which I have replaced with a HUGE fiber optic sight that is so awesome...) This would be even better on it.

    You got some research to do and some choices to make. Good luck.

    On the budget, I'd probably get the PA Micro and the DeltaPoint. Then you'll get to see if you like using the micro and possibly get that Aimpoint some day. And you'll also get the mini reflex to move around between all the toys.

    Hope I helped, even if it was only a little
    Of course Bman. Insightful posts are always welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
    I have used a Burris Fastfire II on numerous platforms, it's a good optic on a long gun, but IMO no mini HUD type sight is suitable for defensive use on a pistol without LOTS and LOTS of presentation practice.

    Burris is about to introduce the Fastfire III to market in the coming weeks. Might want to just wait for that one.

    IMO, Don't waste your money on an Aimpoint unless you plan on HALO jumping into a swamp and low crawling 30 miles to your objective in a monsoon. Same for Trijicon....super overpriced products with capabilities that no typical shooter will ever need.
    Thoughts noted Val. I can see me springing for 1, aimpoint type sight. Not one for every AK and AR here. (I'd have to sell my car) But mainly due to battery life. They last years and years and years... ON. And I wouldn't mind having 1 such sight here if things ever did go south here on planet earth. I know there is a NV capable version with extra water proofing. (T1?) I would buy the not so bomb proof version instead. H1. I think?

    But you won't see me ordering a fleet of them... that's for damn sure. Thank you for the thoughts on the FF.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    I've seen some tests of the Primary arms Microdot that is a clone of the Aimpoint you're referring to. While not aimpoint tough, i've seen them thrown against a wall and bounced off the concrete mulitple times, without losing their zero.

    Truthfully, when you buy an Aimpoint you are paying for highly paid Swedish factory workers, Swedish socialism, and import taxes on top of it.

    Aimpoints are great optics, but they are just totally overpriced IMO. This is especially true when 95% of all shooters will never even once need any of the capabilities that make them soooo high priced.

    Of course this is one of those things that often starts an internet argument...

    The new Fastfire III has lots of upgrades, i suggest you research it before spending your money, IMO it has corrected all of the faults of the FFII model. (at least on paper) It should also last for years with the switch set to "on." (So will the Vortex Strikeforce, which i mention below)

    I also have a Vortex Strikeforce (M4 clone with lifetime warranty) on my Ruger 22/45. It works really well, and has a lot of great features including a NV mode, for a mere $150. It also comes with a 2x screw on eye piece. It is a whole lot bigger than any mini HUD though.

    When it finally comes back from the various shops i've sent it to, my Five SeveN is eventually going to wear a Burris FFIII backed up by a Viridian C5L 100 lumen strobe/green laser. With a laser for short range "draw fast or die" type shooting, the limitations of a HUD on a pistol are largely eliminated.
    Last edited by Valorius; January 19th, 2012 at 04:00 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    I realize anything detracting from the internet commando status quo is cause for a shock and awe fan boy assault!

    However I understand your points. I agree with you about price, and even need. But I still see value in the durability, size of the sight, size and intensity of the dot, as well as the way the dot is generated, as well as the amazing battery life of the aimpoint. I think it matches well with the attributes of the AK platform. And is probably the right move at some point if I do dedicate an optic to an AK.

    Not 3. 1. Lol!


    But for now, something of the reflex variety may be more universal for the time being. I just don't want to plunk one on an AK, and cook it.

    I'll check out the FF3. I'm not in a hurry. I'd like to pick up some other things first.

    Cars paid off in a month ...

    Which... is like an aimpoint a month... so I'm just doing some theorizing before I suddenly have $ to spend and get too excited to use my brain properly.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    If money is no object, the Leupold mini HUD model is probably the best on the market. It has a much bigger, more rounded window than it's competitors which will definitely help in picking up the dot in pressure or low light situations.

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    Default Re: mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
    If money is no object, the Leupold mini HUD model is probably the best on the market. It has a much bigger, more rounded window than it's competitors which will definitely help in picking up the dot in pressure or low light situations.
    Oh money is still an object... especially for this sight. I'll check out the Leupy reflex though. The Trijicon RMR is spendy as all hell too. I'd like to avoid spending that kind of money if I can.

    Mainly I was just referencing some of the smaller mini reflex sights I was somewhat familiar with to open a broader discussion about all of them. And then find out maybe what will work for me that isn't $500.

    Basically for the next 3-4 months I'm going to take my car payment and blow it on toys as a gift to myself for paying the car off almost a year early. I'd like to stretch that as far as it can go. But I'd also like to get to some of the things I was not able to previously get to being under the burden of a fairly obscene car payment.

    Then I go back to saving $ and I can do little things here and there. Make sense?

    So no, I don't want to spend $500-600 on a reflex sight. Will I spend it some day on an H1 for an AK? Most likely yes. It would be cool if I could spend $200-300 on something (max) that would work on an AK and a pistol. That I could also mount on a shotgun later if I change my mind. (Or on another AK)

    I'd like to try one on the poor man's 5.7 (PMR-30) before I send a Glock to be butchered for a RDS too. (The PMR costs less than what it costs to mill the Glock. Well, MSRP anyway... good luck finding one for that.) But I'd really like to fool around with one either way. And most .22 pistols do not float my boat. The PMR does. If I like it... one of the .45's is going to get sent out to match. And it's probably going to be a Glock. I know you hate them Val... but, I like them a lot.

    So yeah. And a bunch of other stuff too. Any other noteworthy mini reflex sights for me to look at?

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    Default Re: mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    I think the Leupold mini HUD is about $350, and the mount will probably run you another $50 too.

    The new FFIII is supposed to retail for about $250 i think. My brother has a FFII on his tricked out G17, and seems to like it.

    You don't need to get the slide milled for any of the mini HUDs if you use the rear dovetail mounts sold for them.
    Last edited by Valorius; January 19th, 2012 at 05:32 PM.

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    Default Re: mini reflex sight (RMR/J-point/Burris FF) etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
    You don't need to get the slide milled for any of the mini HUDs if you use the rear dovetail mounts sold for them.
    I was thinking about trying that first.

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