Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    81
    Rep Power
    197065

    Default MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    Lot of time on my hands here in retirement. I just took a look at the first 100 posts that came up under the Training board. WOW. Lots of operators out there training folk to operate operationally. I mean, holy cow: Force on Force, blah blah. And among those first 100 training offerings, exactly two offerings of any in-depth instruction on the case law that determines whether or not any user of deadly force EVEN GETS TO HAVE HIS OR HER CLAIM OF JUSTIFICATION ADMITTED BY THE JUDGE!!! SO, what conclusions can be drawn from that empirical assessment?

    Well, we got a whole helluva lot of members playing kiddie games as grown ups (toss in a bit of IDPA, USPSA, IPSC for good measure), and not SQUAT about what the realities are if any one of you all ever, God forbid, end up in a deadly force encounter where you are the shooter.

    ”Oh well, that’s what I’ve got my lawyer for.” HAHAHAH Well, unless you’ve got Phil Kline, Joshua Prince, Adam Kraut, Manny Kapelsohn, Anthony Tambourino, Ray Ortwein, and others recommended by ACLDN, your attorney in all likelihood doesn’t know anymore about PA’s jury instructions and appellate law as to your ”hoped for” justification defense than you do. But, I confess ignorance, here in any specific case. So, here are the test questions you can ask him or her to see if she or he does:

    Q #1. Will you allow me to testify on my own behalf? If atty answers YES, atty passed that step, if NO, move on Bro/Sis. Why? Because, oh, you don’t know why? Hmmmm.... maybe the $ you spent on that CQB course you took should have been better spent on a course that actually taught the law of self defense in PA. Or, OH, MD, NJ, NY, or any other state in which you happen to travel.

    Q #2. Can my claim to my right to silence, upon initial contact by LE following my use of force, be held against me at a preliminary hearing, or at trial? Oh..... you don’t know that answer? Does your attorney? If YES, he or she just passed the second test? If not, the $ you spent on that Force on Force class will likely be a waste.

    Q #3. Does he or she know what the difference(s) is(are) between Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground? Hard and Soft versions? How about what constitutes “highly defensible property?” How about “legal presumption of reasonable fear?” If not, Good luck, Bro/Sis...

    Q #4. Does he or she know EVEN MORE BASICALLY, what the required elements are for a viable claim of Justification under PA Law? Hint: it is NOT JUST AOJ

    And while not related to SD law, are you prepared in PA to spend a year in solitary confinement (for your own protection) following your use of deadly force? Are you prepared to “go broke,” lose your “friends,” have to move out of state and live with your parents? You got 300k sitting around doing nothing???

    Oh, and for those of you who post up here that your ‘law’ (sic) is that “I just shoot him in the face,” you’d better hope to God you never get in a SD shooting where you’re the shooter. Because YOU WILL BE FOUND and that assertion can be used.. oh, you don’t know how ..????

    MODS: recommendation here to you all. You need to create a Board specific to the issue of the multiple realities of the use of force. Phil, Joshua and Adam will be excellent resources, as will Anthony and Ray.

    Now, back to watching the Sixers suck air

    Be safe, Operators, TB605

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Posts
    22,701
    Rep Power
    21474870

    Default Re: MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    You want to take a minute to insult open carriers and AR15 owners too while you're at it?

    LOL!
    June 16th PAFOA Group Shoot and BACON Fest! (near Pgh) Details HERE - ALL WELCOME!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    South East of disorder
    Posts
    2,197
    Rep Power
    21474846

    Default Re: MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    Yes one of those responses was from me.(posted below) I am a Police Officer and I know not to talk to the Police. Even while on Duty if involved in a shooting we are advised to call the F.O.P., and not speak to the other Police, or make written reports. If I am involved in an off duty encounter I will remain silent. I will lawyer up and shut up. If the Police want to use my silence against me, so be it. Better to remain silent then run my mouth. Police on duty get to decompress. Why shouldn't anyone else?

    TB605, are you telling us you know every answer, for every possible situation?



    Law of Self-Defense ™ Quiz
    I did the test and IMO the questions were meant to be confusing. When a question has an about percentage that's just crazy. I have a crap email for stuff just like this. You don't have to log into your email to see the results. They are provided after the email portion.

    I have a Lawyer for this so again IMO, I don't need to know all the answers.
    “Proclaim Liberty throughout all the Land unto all the Inhabitants thereof.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Blue Mountain
    (Carbon County)
    Posts
    125
    Rep Power
    439815

    Default Re: MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    While I'm sure your intentions are good...if I've got a limited training budget and my options are:

    1) Be trained on all the laws so I avoid jail time after someone tries to hurt me or my loved ones
    2) Be trained on how to use a firearm so me and my loved ones survive to explain ourselves to a jury

    I'd pick 2 all day long. Being a living operator vs a dead lawyer isn't exactly a choice anyone needs to think about twice. Knowing the laws is great. Not hitting the 5 guys standing behind the person assaulting me is better.

    So are you here just to point out the holes in our collective knowledge or provide something useful to fill in the gaps?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Chippewa, Pennsylvania
    (Beaver County)
    Posts
    2,357
    Rep Power
    21474846

    Default Re: MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    Quote Originally Posted by TangoBravo605 View Post
    Lot of time on my hands here in retirement. I just took a look at the first 100 posts that came up under the Training board. WOW. Lots of operators out there training folk to operate operationally. I mean, holy cow: Force on Force, blah blah. And among those first 100 training offerings, exactly two offerings of any in-depth instruction on the case law that determines whether or not any user of deadly force EVEN GETS TO HAVE HIS OR HER CLAIM OF JUSTIFICATION ADMITTED BY THE JUDGE!!! SO, what conclusions can be drawn from that empirical assessment?

    Well, we got a whole helluva lot of members playing kiddie games as grown ups (toss in a bit of IDPA, USPSA, IPSC for good measure), and not SQUAT about what the realities are if any one of you all ever, God forbid, end up in a deadly force encounter where you are the shooter.

    ”Oh well, that’s what I’ve got my lawyer for.” HAHAHAH Well, unless you’ve got Phil Kline, Joshua Prince, Adam Kraut, Manny Kapelsohn, Anthony Tambourino, Ray Ortwein, and others recommended by ACLDN, your attorney in all likelihood doesn’t know anymore about PA’s jury instructions and appellate law as to your ”hoped for” justification defense than you do. But, I confess ignorance, here in any specific case. So, here are the test questions you can ask him or her to see if she or he does:

    Q #1. Will you allow me to testify on my own behalf? If atty answers YES, atty passed that step, if NO, move on Bro/Sis. Why? Because, oh, you don’t know why? Hmmmm.... maybe the $ you spent on that CQB course you took should have been better spent on a course that actually taught the law of self defense in PA. Or, OH, MD, NJ, NY, or any other state in which you happen to travel.

    Q #2. Can my claim to my right to silence, upon initial contact by LE following my use of force, be held against me at a preliminary hearing, or at trial? Oh..... you don’t know that answer? Does your attorney? If YES, he or she just passed the second test? If not, the $ you spent on that Force on Force class will likely be a waste.

    Q #3. Does he or she know what the difference(s) is(are) between Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground? Hard and Soft versions? How about what constitutes “highly defensible property?” How about “legal presumption of reasonable fear?” If not, Good luck, Bro/Sis...

    Q #4. Does he or she know EVEN MORE BASICALLY, what the required elements are for a viable claim of Justification under PA Law? Hint: it is NOT JUST AOJ

    And while not related to SD law, are you prepared in PA to spend a year in solitary confinement (for your own protection) following your use of deadly force? Are you prepared to “go broke,” lose your “friends,” have to move out of state and live with your parents? You got 300k sitting around doing nothing???

    Oh, and for those of you who post up here that your ‘law’ (sic) is that “I just shoot him in the face,” you’d better hope to God you never get in a SD shooting where you’re the shooter. Because YOU WILL BE FOUND and that assertion can be used.. oh, you don’t know how ..????

    MODS: recommendation here to you all. You need to create a Board specific to the issue of the multiple realities of the use of force. Phil, Joshua and Adam will be excellent resources, as will Anthony and Ray.

    Now, back to watching the Sixers suck air

    Be safe, Operators, TB605
    U mad bro?

    Don't be a judgy ***. You don't know what training people have.

    You might want to see what Ayoob says about #1.
    Life has a melody.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    On top of a hill, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5,343
    Rep Power
    21474847

    Default Re: MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    I got board after the 1st paragraph and stopped reading, ohh look it's time to go play cowboys and Indians with my AK.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    "The Country", Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
    Posts
    1,934
    Rep Power
    21474843

    Default Re: MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    I’m sure your coworkers miss you a lot :::rolls eyes:::
    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    SEPA
    (Lancaster County)
    Posts
    269
    Rep Power
    3550593

    Default Re: MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    It's kind of funny that someone who is ranting about "operators" has such a tacti-cool username.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    On top of a hill, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5,343
    Rep Power
    21474847

    Default Re: MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    Quote Originally Posted by flabbydan View Post
    It's kind of funny that someone who is ranting about "operators" has such a tacti-cool username.
    Well it's obvious that he has taken enough courses and instruction to have earned it.

    DUH!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Ercildoun, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
    Posts
    3,029
    Rep Power
    21474845

    Default Re: MODS: time for a recommendation here.

    Quote Originally Posted by TangoBravo605 View Post
    Lot of time on my hands here in retirement. I just took a look at the first 100 posts that came up under the Training board. WOW. Lots of operators out there training folk to operate operationally. I mean, holy cow: Force on Force, blah blah. And among those first 100 training offerings, exactly two offerings of any in-depth instruction on the case law that determines whether or not any user of deadly force EVEN GETS TO HAVE HIS OR HER CLAIM OF JUSTIFICATION ADMITTED BY THE JUDGE!!! SO, what conclusions can be drawn from that empirical assessment?

    Well, we got a whole helluva lot of members playing kiddie games as grown ups (toss in a bit of IDPA, USPSA, IPSC for good measure), and not SQUAT about what the realities are if any one of you all ever, God forbid, end up in a deadly force encounter where you are the shooter.

    ”Oh well, that’s what I’ve got my lawyer for.” HAHAHAH Well, unless you’ve got Phil Kline, Joshua Prince, Adam Kraut, Manny Kapelsohn, Anthony Tambourino, Ray Ortwein, and others recommended by ACLDN, your attorney in all likelihood doesn’t know anymore about PA’s jury instructions and appellate law as to your ”hoped for” justification defense than you do. But, I confess ignorance, here in any specific case. So, here are the test questions you can ask him or her to see if she or he does:

    Q #1. Will you allow me to testify on my own behalf? If atty answers YES, atty passed that step, if NO, move on Bro/Sis. Why? Because, oh, you don’t know why? Hmmmm.... maybe the $ you spent on that CQB course you took should have been better spent on a course that actually taught the law of self defense in PA. Or, OH, MD, NJ, NY, or any other state in which you happen to travel.

    Q #2. Can my claim to my right to silence, upon initial contact by LE following my use of force, be held against me at a preliminary hearing, or at trial? Oh..... you don’t know that answer? Does your attorney? If YES, he or she just passed the second test? If not, the $ you spent on that Force on Force class will likely be a waste.

    Q #3. Does he or she know what the difference(s) is(are) between Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground? Hard and Soft versions? How about what constitutes “highly defensible property?” How about “legal presumption of reasonable fear?” If not, Good luck, Bro/Sis...

    Q #4. Does he or she know EVEN MORE BASICALLY, what the required elements are for a viable claim of Justification under PA Law? Hint: it is NOT JUST AOJ

    And while not related to SD law, are you prepared in PA to spend a year in solitary confinement (for your own protection) following your use of deadly force? Are you prepared to “go broke,” lose your “friends,” have to move out of state and live with your parents? You got 300k sitting around doing nothing???

    Oh, and for those of you who post up here that your ‘law’ (sic) is that “I just shoot him in the face,” you’d better hope to God you never get in a SD shooting where you’re the shooter. Because YOU WILL BE FOUND and that assertion can be used.. oh, you don’t know how ..????

    MODS: recommendation here to you all. You need to create a Board specific to the issue of the multiple realities of the use of force. Phil, Joshua and Adam will be excellent resources, as will Anthony and Ray.

    Now, back to watching the Sixers suck air

    Be safe, Operators, TB605
    Better to just turn in all your guns and let the rapists and murderers have their way it's much safer than the PA judicial system.

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