Philadelphia Open Carry Loophole

[JosephDeNueces]

So to make clear I'm only making this thread since I found this to be an interesting gap in the law; I don't suggest anyone actually go out and do this because even though under the letter of the law it's theoretically legal, it'sa untested area and you are likely going to get arrested and charged; So unless you want to take the risk of being the test case and all that comes with that for this, don't do it.

That said, I was doing some legal research and I found that in the 1970s there was a case over the definition of a firearm, in which the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania ruled in Commonwealth v. Todd (1978) for purposes of Title 18, Chapter 61, that unless a specific section in question has a different definition of a firearm, the definition provided by Sec. 6102 is the binding and authoritative one and that any gun not meeting that definition are exempt; thus sets the stage for this thread; for the purposes of PA law the definition of a "firearm" is, for pistols and revolvers, is a barrel length of less than 15 inches or a overall length of less than 26 inches; thus meaning any AR pistol with a 16 inch barrel would be exempt from Sec. 6108; since by definition it's not a "firearm" per PA law, and it's not a rifle or a shotgun under the common dictionary definition. (Just for the record using this loophole for rifles and shotguns was shot down by the Supreme Court in Commonwealth v. Pope (1973))

In the instant appeal appellant challenges the sufficiency of the evidence to support the firearms verdicts.[2] In its opinion disposing of appellant's written post-trial motions, the trial court ruled that the evidence was sufficient to support the firearms verdict. For the following reasons, we disagree and therefore reverse the judgment of sentence entered on that verdict and discharge appellant as to the firearms counts.

The relevant provisions of the Uniform Firearms Act (Act) are as follows:

No person who has been convicted in this Commonwealth or elsewhere of a crime of violence shall own a firearm, or have one in his possession or under his control. 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 6105 (1973).

[3] (a) Offense defined. No person shall carry a firearm in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a license therefor as provided in this subchapter. Id. § 6106(a).

The definitional section of the Act defines "firearm" as follows:

Any pistol or revolver with a barrel less than 12 inches, any shotgun with a barrel less than 24 inches, or any rifle with a barrel less than 15 inches. Id. § 6102.

Penal statutes must be strictly construed. 1 Pa. C.S.A. § 1928(b)(1) (Supp. 1977-78). Thus we must conclude that barrel length is an essential element of the offenses defined in sections 6105 and 6106, and it is fundamental that the Commonwealth must prove every essential element of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Accordingly, the judgment of sentence entered on the firearms verdict is reversed, and appellant is discharged as to those counts.

[free]

Good luck.

[Gunsnwater]

Texas is a long walk to Philly.

[gdc]

So, I was doing some legal research and I found that in the 1970s there was a case over the definition of a firearm, in which the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania ruled in Commonwealth v. Todd (1978) for purposes of Title 18, Chapter 61, that unless a specific section in question has a different definition of a firearm, the definition provided by Sec. 6102 is the binding and authoritative one and that any gun not meeting that definition are exempt; thus sets the stage for this thread; for the purposes of PA law the definition of a "firearm" is, for pistols and revolvers, is a barrel length of less than 15 inches or a overall length of less than 26 inches; thus meaning any AR pistol with a 16 inch barrel would be exempt from Sec. 6108; since by definition it's not a "firearm" per PA law, and it's not a rifle or a shotgun under the common dictionary definition. (Just for the record using this loophole for rifles and shotguns was shot down by the Supreme Court in Commonwealth v. Pope (1973))

uuummmm, yeah.....aahhhh...... no....^^^^^^^^^^

Welcome to the forum, though

[Berncly]

I don't follow the logic here or the intended point of the OP.

[Krichardson]

Texas is a long walk to Philly.

I thought it was one of those surrounding suburbs.

[JenniferG]

Even if the law is in black and white and clear to see Philadelphia has the option to arrest you and make you go bankrupt defending yourself if they feel like it no matter what the law says.

[Carson]

Even if the law is in black and white and clear to see Philadelphia has the option to arrest you and make you go bankrupt defending yourself if they feel like it no matter what the law says.

While you may not be totally wrong, I think the OP is stretching just a little too far here.

[Gun]

Whether one could legally OC a 16" AR pistol in Phillie, 6106.1 would prevent one from having it loaded while in a vehicle, since this applies to loaded weapons other than firearms as defined by 6102.

IANAL.

[JosephDeNueces]

While you may not be totally wrong, I think the OP is stretching just a little too far here.

Now why do you say that? The clear opinion of the Supreme Court was that, for the purposes of Pennsylvania Law, all firearms are guns, but not all guns are firearms, when they threw out a Person not to Possess conviction for a man who shot his wife in the face in broad daylight; This is also reinforced by a subsequent Superior Court ruling which threw out a Person not to Possess conviction on the same grounds. This is why Section 6105 now has section (I) which defines a firearm as the literal definition of a firearm, and Section 6106.1 has the title "Carrying loaded weapons other than firearms.", and states "pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle, other than a firearm as defined in section 6102". The beloved section 6108 only states "firearm, rifle or shotgun", thus by omission a Pistol with a barrel length of over 15 inches would not be prohibited to carry in Philadelphia as it is not a firearm, shotgun or rifle per Pennsylvania law.

Here's the link to the case law if you wish to read it for yourself.
Commonwealth vs Todd (1978), Surpeme Court: https://www.courtlistener.com/opinio...42/com-v-todd/
Commonwealth vs Rapp (1978), Superior Court: https://law.justia.com/cases/pennsyl...uper-31-2.html

Whether one could legally OC a 16" AR pistol in Phillie, 6106.1 would prevent one from having it loaded while in a vehicle, since this applies to loaded weapons other than firearms as defined by 6102.

IANAL.

This is true, which is why 6106.1 specifically states "loaded weapons other than a firearm", since guns not meeting the definition of a "firearm" are simply "weapons" per Pennsylvania law; That said a guy tried to beat 6108 in 1968 saying that since his 22" rifle wasn't a firearm under 6102, it was exempt, but the Supreme Court ruled as long as the law specifically states a type of gun in addition to or the exclusion of "firearms" the law applies to them as well.