PA state trooper disassenbled my gun during traffic stop

[jthrelf]

Does anyone remember the story here on PAFOA a couple years ago of someone who was told to hold their hand out 'like they were getting candy' as the officer thumbed all the rounds out of their mag?

[unclejumbo]

I get it and I'm not even try to dispute anything you've said, but I don't understand the logic. The guy was polite, I'm assuming the OP was polite, and compliant so it's not like when he gets his pistol back he's going to flip out and start shooting at the police like some bad Hollywood movie. It's also extremely unlikely that the OP by being annoyed about the incident is going to reassess his life and decide that carrying a gun isn't worth it.

So if it's not for safety and it's not to annoy him into getting rid of his guns, then it's as if the guy is being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole. Then again you did say PSP is a cross section of society and we know there are plenty of assholes in society so I guess there's the logic.

The mindset is that by the time the person reassembles and loads the firearm, the Trooper(s) are gone. It's a much more likely scenario where the Trooper has issued a citation or two. We've all seen the video of people raging over a citation. A small minority of those people, if handed a gun, would probably shoot due to their anger. Not condoning it, but I know the attitude that begets it. A much less intrusive method is to have the driver lock the firearm in the trunk during the stop.

[unclejumbo]

To answer a few questions...this absolutely DID happen to me, It was about 9:15 at night and in a previous post somebody thought it was odd for the state police to do a traffic stop and I agree, it was odd because of the line of questioning the trooper who approached me asked. Both troopers were younger guys. The trooper who approached me asked me where I was coming from, I told him work, he asked where that was so I told him the address of the property I was working at ( I do property maintenance for a property management co) He asked me where I was going I told him home, he then asked me how long ago I had left work I told him I just left and was on my way home but he wasn't satisfied, he asked me if I had stopped anywhere on my way I said no...he asked me this several times...enough I thought it odd, so I thought through my travels and then said to him " well I pulled over for a min at the shopping center a few blocks back because I hit a bump with the work van and heard a box of nails fall and I wanted to pick them up before they were all over the place, I just pulled into the entrance to the shopping center jumped out and left the engine running, I was at the back of the van for like 20 seconds then on my way again. He then seemed satisfied and handed me back my licenses and that's when he told me what his partner had done. My work van is a grey 89 ford e150, it has that shady vehicle look to it sorta, even though I have ladder rack and ladders on roof, its obvious to all who see it what it is....its a work van.

I called the local barracks today and spoke with a corporal somebody, who listened to me recall the events and listened to me state that I felt this was over the top and out of line, I then asked him if the troopers were trained to do this, he says yes they are. They feel the need to do so because law abiding compliant citizens sometimes become non compliant as soon as you give them their gun back and they will shoot an officer as he is walking away. I have never heard of this happening and guarantee you if a law abiding licensed carrying person shot a cop in the back it would be all over the news, the anti's would be shouting it from the mountain tops! I didn't say that to him I thought about it afterwards. I told him I was offended and that it was unacceptable, he said he is sorry I feel offended but the world we live in has gotten that bad that this is necessary, He asked me if all of the pieces of my gun were returned to me, I said to him I wouldn't be talking to you in this tone of voice if they hadn't (I was being respectful) I asked him what happens if something is lost or damaged, he says the pa state police are liable for it, Im thinking yeah right, the state police are going to admit to losing or damaging my firearms components and pay for them....I doubt it. I didn't say that to him though. I am going to call the state police internal affairs tomorrow on the above web page.

Sounds like a fishing expedition for drug buyers.

[gghbi]

To answer a few questions...this absolutely DID happen to me, It was about 9:15 at night and in a previous post somebody thought it was odd for the state police to do a traffic stop and I agree, it was odd because of the line of questioning the trooper who approached me asked. Both troopers were younger guys. The trooper who approached me asked me where I was coming from, I told him work, he asked where that was so I told him the address of the property I was working at ( I do property maintenance for a property management co) He asked me where I was going I told him home, he then asked me how long ago I had left work I told him I just left and was on my way home but he wasn't satisfied, he asked me if I had stopped anywhere on my way I said no...he asked me this several times...enough I thought it odd, so I thought through my travels and then said to him " well I pulled over for a min at the shopping center a few blocks back because I hit a bump with the work van and heard a box of nails fall and I wanted to pick them up before they were all over the place, I just pulled into the entrance to the shopping center jumped out and left the engine running, I was at the back of the van for like 20 seconds then on my way again. He then seemed satisfied and handed me back my licenses and that's when he told me what his partner had done. My work van is a grey 89 ford e150, it has that shady vehicle look to it sorta, even though I have ladder rack and ladders on roof, its obvious to all who see it what it is....its a work van.

I called the local barracks today and spoke with a corporal somebody, who listened to me recall the events and listened to me state that I felt this was over the top and out of line, I then asked him if the troopers were trained to do this, he says yes they are. They feel the need to do so because law abiding compliant citizens sometimes become non compliant as soon as you give them their gun back and they will shoot an officer as he is walking away. I have never heard of this happening and guarantee you if a law abiding licensed carrying person shot a cop in the back it would be all over the news, the anti's would be shouting it from the mountain tops! I didn't say that to him I thought about it afterwards. I told him I was offended and that it was unacceptable, he said he is sorry I feel offended but the world we live in has gotten that bad that this is necessary, He asked me if all of the pieces of my gun were returned to me, I said to him I wouldn't be talking to you in this tone of voice if they hadn't (I was being respectful) I asked him what happens if something is lost or damaged, he says the pa state police are liable for it, Im thinking yeah right, the state police are going to admit to losing or damaging my firearms components and pay for them....I doubt it. I didn't say that to him though. I am going to call the state police internal affairs tomorrow on the above web page.

There was a state trooper shot in Northampton county after a stop not too long ago, but as I recall he grabbed the gun out of the car, and the cop did not know about it until the shooting started.

The corporal began to drive away, when the driver flagged him down to talk about the citation, state police said. During the conversation, the corporal came to believe the driver was under the influence and called for backup. The suspect failed a field sobriety test, and when the trooper went to arrest him for suspected DUI, a "knock-down, drag-out fight" ensued, D'Ambrosio said. "It got very, very violent. It was a very violent fight," D'Ambrosio said, adding he watched video of the altercation. The suspect, who was not named by police, freed himself, grabbed a gun from his car and opened fire on the troopers, D'Ambrosio said. The troopers returned fire; the wounded trooper suffered three gunshot wounds while the driver was struck multiple times.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/slat...te_33_pol.html
http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/nort...or_his_li.html

with more here: http://topics.lehighvalleylive.com/t...eld%20township

[Justin///M]

Hey Guys.....I have never had this happen to me until tonight and I honestly cant believe it even happened. I am on my way out of the City of Reading when I get lit up red and blue, so I
pull over put my interior light on and wait with hands on steering wheel. Officer approaches and asks me for the usual license insurance registration. I said to him calmly that I have a
license to carry firearms and have a handgun in holster on left hip and have to reach close to it in order to get wallet out ( I always forget to get wallet out ahead of time).

He pauses for a
few seconds then asks me if I mind if he removes it from my person while we conduct the traffic stop. Its not really a request even though he said it as nicely as he did. I said sure he says
where is it, I say on my left hip in a safariland 6000 holster and that he should be familiar with the holster. he opens van door and removes gun, thanks me for letting him know I had it.
Tells me my tail light on passenger side is burned out. I said ok ill get it fixed asap I have bulbs with me. He goes back to cruiser. His partner watched from passenger side whole time and returns to cruiser. Few min later officer returns on my side partner on passenger side. Officer stated he was giving me a warning for tail light get it fixed asap, I said I would right away.

Then he says to me, "my partner has diassembled your gun and will put it on the passenger seat", he then asks, "do you know how to put it back together or should I have my partner reassemble it for you?" I looked at him and was puzzled, I thought I understood him but I have never heard of this, I said "What? disassembled as in removed the slide? Officer says "yes" I am shocked and I just said " no don't worry about it " So his partner opens passenger side door and says to me " I don't know you , I don't hand assembled guns to people I don't know, here are the parts for your glock on seat and here is the barrel". He hands me barrel and closes door. they leave. This is ridiculous! they removed the slide barrel and recoil spring from slide and handed me the gun in pieces!! I can easily put it back together but that's not the point. I am calling the pa state police to complain. Its one thing to unload my gun, but to take it apart!! ridiculous!

It's all your fault for consenting to allowing him to remove it. Sorry.

[KCJones]

I've tried and tried to come up with a 'reasonable compromise' on this.

I -do- understand cops who just want to be sure they get home alive that night. I -do- get they don't know I'm not some psycho. I -do- understand that for all I know some nutjob pulled on them 3 days ago and they're strung out and paranoid.

OTOH, I don't know that THEY aren't some ego-driven "respect my authori-tay" psycho. I don't know if they're one of those 'threatened' by not being the only armed person in the encounter. Yeah, maybe they're just a guy who doesn't want to get shot tonight. But I don't know that any more than they know if I'm a nutbag ready to start blazing away.

In the end it comes down to this. If a cop wants to "hold" my firearm "for safety" my gut reaction remains "Okay... you first". That they expect ME to give up my firearm while they retain theirs is a fundamental imbalance, and a fundamental violation of my -right- to be armed.

I understand those who say "it's not such a big deal and all was well in the end". I understand those who suggest the cop was just trying to keep himself safe in a wild world full of whackos.

But in the end, it's real simple. I have a right to be armed. You (cop) do not have the right to disarm me. Period. If you don't feel safe because I'm armed... Take down my plate, drive away and pursue me through other channels.

I think it's BS and the OP needs to give 'em hell.

[Justin///M]

To answer a few questions...this absolutely DID happen to me, It was about 9:15 at night and in a previous post somebody thought it was odd for the state police to do a traffic stop and I agree, it was odd because of the line of questioning the trooper who approached me asked. Both troopers were younger guys. The trooper who approached me asked me where I was coming from, I told him work, he asked where that was so I told him the address of the property I was working at ( I do property maintenance for a property management co) He asked me where I was going I told him home, he then asked me how long ago I had left work I told him I just left and was on my way home but he wasn't satisfied, he asked me if I had stopped anywhere on my way I said no...he asked me this several times...enough I thought it odd, so I thought through my travels and then said to him " well I pulled over for a min at the shopping center a few blocks back because I hit a bump with the work van and heard a box of nails fall and I wanted to pick them up before they were all over the place, I just pulled into the entrance to the shopping center jumped out and left the engine running, I was at the back of the van for like 20 seconds then on my way again. He then seemed satisfied and handed me back my licenses and that's when he told me what his partner had done. My work van is a grey 89 ford e150, it has that shady vehicle look to it sorta, even though I have ladder rack and ladders on roof, its obvious to all who see it what it is....its a work van.

I called the local barracks today and spoke with a corporal somebody, who listened to me recall the events and listened to me state that I felt this was over the top and out of line, I then asked him if the troopers were trained to do this, he says yes they are. They feel the need to do so because law abiding compliant citizens sometimes become non compliant as soon as you give them their gun back and they will shoot an officer as he is walking away. I have never heard of this happening and guarantee you if a law abiding licensed carrying person shot a cop in the back it would be all over the news, the anti's would be shouting it from the mountain tops! I didn't say that to him I thought about it afterwards. I told him I was offended and that it was unacceptable, he said he is sorry I feel offended but the world we live in has gotten that bad that this is necessary, He asked me if all of the pieces of my gun were returned to me, I said to him I wouldn't be talking to you in this tone of voice if they hadn't (I was being respectful) I asked him what happens if something is lost or damaged, he says the pa state police are liable for it, Im thinking yeah right, the state police are going to admit to losing or damaging my firearms components and pay for them....I doubt it. I didn't say that to him though. I am going to call the state police internal affairs tomorrow on the above web page.

You have the right to remain silent. You're under no obligation to participate in their fishing trip.

[Sgt.K]

Does anyone remember the story here on PAFOA a couple years ago of someone who was told to hold their hand out 'like they were getting candy' as the officer thumbed all the rounds out of their mag?

I remember reading it. I also remember commenting that either one of my spare mags could be loaded into place before I took the time to refill the first one.

I'm beginning to think that a lot of cops need to wear neckties with their uniforms
To keep their foreskins from riding up...



Note:
For those who don't get the subtle phrasing, one of my inner voices is screaming "DICKHEADS!!" so loudly I'm finding it hard to concentrate.

[KCJones]

It's all your fault for consenting to allowing him to remove it. Sorry.

You have the right to remain silent. You're under no obligation to participate in their fishing trip.

Yes, he shouldn't have given consent.

Yes, he should have exercised his right to remain silent.

But let's be reality-based for a sec...

Most normal folks are a bit initimidated by LEO. Most folks are inclined to comply. Most folks have been inculcated into a culture of 'do what the cops say'.

I think it is MORE incumbent on LEO to know and abide by the law than your average joe. I think they have a -higher- threshold of knowing the law, abiding by the law, and enforcing the law with reason and balance than does 'average motorist' to know chapter and verse of the vehicle and criminal code.

Bottom line, we can talk about what the motorist -should- have done 'til the cows come home, and that's great.

But what the cop -should- have done is more critical. The cop polices professionally. The motorist (unless maybe a commercial driver) isn't doing it professionally but ancillary to their job, life, profession, etc.

There is a greater incumbency on the cop to know and do his job than on the driver to 'exercise his privilege' in full and complete awareness of every little nuance of the law.

To presume a Law Enforcement Officer has at least a reasonable familiarity with relevant codes, regulations and laws is ... reasonable.

But the state's 'presumption' that a driver is fully aware and informed of a complex, arcane and often vague set of complex codes, regulations and laws is unreasonable and tantamount to tyranny, IMHO. It's a scale tipped to the advantage of the state vs. the individual, unfairly so.

Bottom line: it's ego-pleasin' to say "sorry, you gave consent, sucks for you." It lets us mount our high-horse a bit to say "ha ha, you should have shut up".

But let's be real ladies. The truth here is the real 'crime' going on is LEO using folks' ignorance against them. Let's maybe unite in saying a big "F You No!" to that, instead of counting coup on each other with some neener-neener 'shoulda said no and shut up'.

OF COURSE he should have said "no" and then shut up.

But let he who is without sin cast the first stone... I know I can't 'throw' on that basis.

None of us is perfect. MOST of us have probably not fully stood for our rights when encountering LEO. It's easy to say, harder to do.

[Justin///M]

Yes, he shouldn't have given consent.

Yes, he should have exercised his right to remain silent.

But let's be reality-based for a sec...

Most normal folks are a bit initimidated by LEO. Most folks are inclined to comply. Most folks have been inculcated into a culture of 'do what the cops say'.

I think it is MORE incumbent on LEO to know and abide by the law than your average joe. I think they have a -higher- threshold of knowing the law, abiding by the law, and enforcing the law with reason and balance than does 'average motorist' to know chapter and verse of the vehicle and criminal code.

Bottom line, we can talk about what the motorist -should- have done 'til the cows come home, and that's great.

But what the cop -should- have done is more critical. The cop polices professionally. The motorist (unless maybe a commercial driver) isn't doing it professionally but ancillary to their job, life, profession, etc.

There is a greater incumbency on the cop to know and do his job than on the driver to 'exercise his privilege' in full and complete awareness of every little nuance of the law.

To presume a Law Enforcement Officer has at least a reasonable familiarity with relevant codes, regulations and laws is ... reasonable.

But the state's 'presumption' that a driver is fully aware and informed of a complex, arcane and often vague set of complex codes, regulations and laws is unreasonable and tantamount to tyranny, IMHO. It's a scale tipped to the advantage of the state vs. the individual, unfairly so.

Bottom line: it's ego-pleasin' to say "sorry, you gave consent, sucks for you." It lets us mount our high-horse a bit to say "ha ha, you should have shut up".

But let's be real ladies. The truth here is the real 'crime' going on is LEO using folks' ignorance against them. Let's maybe unite in saying a big "F You No!" to that, instead of counting coup on each other with some neener-neener 'shoulda said no and shut up'.

OF COURSE he should have said "no" and then shut up.

But let he who is without sin cast the first stone... I know I can't 'throw' on that basis.

None of us is perfect. MOST of us have probably not fully stood for our rights when encountering LEO. It's easy to say, harder to do.

I agree, the LEO is fucked up too.

But what is the point of this if it isn't to learn? Hind sight it 20/20 and it's important to talk about what he should have done. Or not have done, in this case. No high horses or egos involved. Not sure why you seem upset.