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October 15th, 2018, 01:35 PM #431
Re: PA state trooper disassenbled my gun during traffic stop
Sometimes there is some fishing going on. There may be another reason why you blew through that stop sign than you have to get to a bathroom. I may stop you for the sign, but the store that was just held up across town or in the adjoining district, is in the back of my mind. Your answer (or refusal) to where you are going/coming from, helps determine my course of action. It’s nothing personal.
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October 15th, 2018, 02:25 PM #432Super Member
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Re: PA state trooper disassenbled my gun during traffic stop
I concede my hyperbole of stating "nothing" is done, but the fact that you have to acknowledge that it is routinely violated is evidence that it is done with a relative impunity. If officers were reprimanded as routinely for violating the rule as they are engaged in violating the rule, they would stop. So, here's my question to you. Let's say that I'm driving while legally armed(with a valid LTCF), and I'm stopped for a routine traffic stop, and am "routinely" asked if I'm armed. What response would recommend I could give to the officer? I don't want to answer "yes" because the officer should have never asked me about it in the first place so it's none of his business, and my civil rights are actually precious to me. You're telling me I should not answer "no", or I'll only "make it worse for myself". So....if I don't want to 'submit' to having my rights violated by answering "yes", and I don't want to make the rights violation worse by lying, how do I answer? Some of the responses I have considered over the years are listed below, along with the attendant 'problems' with each one if I have an officer who is more Cartman than civil servant:
-silence. Refuse to answer the question at all. (the officer could take my non-response as being 'evasive', creating, in his mind, RAS that I'm up to something. After all, only people with "something to hide" refuse to answer)
-point out that the officer has no right to ask the question at all. (the officer could take my response as being 'evasive' AND now I'm copping an attitude, which is fuel on the fire to a Cartman-like officer)
-try to dodge the question by saying something like "there is nothing illegal in the car". (back to 'evasive')
There are others, but each one I've thought of all could give certain types of officers the opportunity to use any answer other than "yes" as further 'evidence' that I'm shady(like you're saying they can with a false "no" answer)
Then, just for sake of argument, let's say I decide to voluntarily submit to having my rights violated and simply answer "yes, I do have a legal gun in the car", and the officer then decides he needs to disarm me for 'his safety'(further violating my civil rights), and then feels he needs to run my gun's serial number against the not-really-a-registry registry to make sure it's 'registered' to me(yet further violating my civil rights), and then decides to confiscate it pending 'proof' of ownership if it doesn't show up in the not-really-a-registry registry because I bought it out-of-state, or it was a lawful gift, or it was an inheritance(yet FURTHER violating my civil rights). Then what? Go hire a lawyer, spend all my savings to sue the officer and his department for numerous civil rights violations, and possibly still lose because judges and juries are not infallible and might get it wrong and rule against me? That's no real 'just' solution. Oh, I might achieve 'justice' but the whole thing will still have been 'unjust'. It's injustice, on top of injustice, on top of injustice. All caused by an officer determined to ask a question he is not allowed to ask in the first place, upon which he can then build a whole mountain of horse crap if he so chooses. And CLEARLY I could not simply refuse to surrender my firearm if the officer decides to disarm me, after using his unconstitutional question to determine I'm armed, without fear of REALLY 'making things worse for myself'. This entire situation is an abuse of power, either intentional or unintentional, that starts with an unconstitutional question that places upon the citizen the burden of having to try to figure out how to get himself out it of without 'making it worse for himself'.
What answer would you suggest we give that both keeps our full civil rights intact, AND doesn't "make things worse for us"?“A Republic, if you can keep it.” - Benjamin Franklin
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October 15th, 2018, 02:29 PM #433
Re: PA state trooper disassenbled my gun during traffic stop
Originally Posted by staylo
Paragraphs por favor?How can you have any cookies if you don't drink your milk?
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October 15th, 2018, 02:29 PM #434Grand Member
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Re: PA state trooper disassenbled my gun during traffic stop
I have experienced both situations, multiple times.
I learned over the years it is better to stick to the rules than it is to fish outside the rules.
Fishing expeditions seldom result in a good pinch. If the result is anything significant, there is a strong possibility of it getting tossed in a suppression hearing.
Not to mention the ill will it creates in the community. That's how we get all the "don't talk to cops" videos on youtube.
Lots of cops are too lazy or too dull to conduct competetent ivestigations within the rules.
It doesn't help that the "us and them" mentality is ingrained in police from the academy on.Crusader's local #556 South Central Asia chapter
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October 15th, 2018, 02:39 PM #435Super Member
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October 15th, 2018, 02:40 PM #436
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October 15th, 2018, 02:56 PM #437Super Member
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Re: PA state trooper disassenbled my gun during traffic stop
Which in turn fosters the same mentality among citizens.
Honest to God, I want to be on the side of the police in an unequivocal way. They perform a job that we not only need, but that greatly benefits society when it’s done properly and within the constitutional framework, and a job which could potentially cost them their life. I completely understand what that’s like, having served in the military. It just makes it really hard for me to back police unequivocally when there are some that aren’t respectable and they continue on for so long without being dealt with.
In my line of work(woodworking) I’ve always said there are two kinds of people that do the job: Craftsman, who do it because they love it; and stoners who screwed off during high school and took woodshop because it was ‘easy’, but then graduated and realized they needed a job to pay for their pot, and since they can’t do anything else they go work in a woodshop. Unfortunately, it seems with police departments, there are two kinds of people that do the job: civil servants who want to “serve and protect”; and bullies who maybe miss the good all days and view the job as the ultimate way to show people who’s boss. Many of the guys who show up on YouTube fall into the second category, and when the public doesn’t see them swiftly dealt with it breeds suspicion because we don’t know which kind of officer is walking up to our window during a traffic stop.“A Republic, if you can keep it.” - Benjamin Franklin
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October 15th, 2018, 03:22 PM #438Member
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Re: PA state trooper disassenbled my gun during traffic stop
Staylo...
I get around.. and I work in an area where I get to see many departments and how they do things. I can only speak for how we do things at mine. After 20 some years of this, I'm proud of my guys and how they conduct themselves. I couldn't tell u the last time an open carrier was stopped or disarmed. Our guys don't disarm permit holders..they dont even ask them to step out of the car. It's just a nonissue anymore. Times have changed... education and experience.
As for what to say or what to do... I am giving worse case experiences. What the worse thing is that's going to happen if you lie or are evasive and you run into the wrong person. You might have luck with "I'm not going to answer that without my attorney" or "I dont have anything to say". I cant really give you a best case because I have never really seen this. We dont deal with it in this context. Either you did something that makes us legitimately think you are a bad guy who's armed or we could care less. But most of you are not going to run into my guys. If you were... you wouldn't be worried about it. I wish I could give you better advice.
As far as your woodworker thing goes... I'm sure you hate seeing hacks with a lathe call themselves professionals. That's how most of us look at it as well. We try to hire the best for our shop... people with skills.. tallent... ability. But there are lots of shops out there and you dont have control over the crap product that those other shops turn out. But yours does quality work.. people know it.. they seek you out. Every once and a while you might send out a piece with a nick or a run in the stain.. but when a complaint comes in you deal with it because your shops reputation is at stake and you dont want to loose the confidence your customers have in you. We all have a lot more in common than you might think.
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October 15th, 2018, 03:50 PM #439Grand Member
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October 15th, 2018, 04:02 PM #440Member
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Re: PA state trooper disassenbled my gun during traffic stop
Ok, I see how it is... cant have any fun with you guys at all. One group can say whatever but the other has to be all serious all the time. Oh how the double standard is so alive and well at pooo-fa!
I stand by that statement (minus the humor since your all so sensitive) because that's the reality of the situation. If you get caught lying about possessing a firearm you are setting yourself up for a bad time with little if any recourse.
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