Legit self defense or not?

[internet troll]

I had this one in the self defense thread but deleted it since the guy is being charged with 2nd degree murder without intent. I will put it back in the thread if the status changes.

Basically an accident occurred. A car full of teens were in one, a 25 CCW in the other. They got out of the cars. The CCW said he felt threatened and that the teen tried to grab the gun and the CCW shot him. Friends of the teen reported that the teen dared the CCW to shoot him and the CCW did. There have been reports that the teens may have been under the influence of some drugs, but they are unsubstantiated as of now.

Minnesota is a "Duty to retreat " state. There are other particulars that you can read about in the article.

I enjoy reading peoples thoughts on these scenarios. While we will react how we react if ever in a similar scenario, I do not think is a bad thing to discuss the consequences of things that happened in real life.




http://www.postbulletin.com/news/cri...2d18eba03.html


Olmsted County Attorney Mark Ostrem said this morning that his office will charge Alexander William Weiss with second-degree murder, without intent, in Sunday's shooting death of a Rochester teenager.

The incident started as a two-vehicle crash that turned into a deadly confrontation.

After the vehicle 17-year-old Muhammed Rahim was driving backed into Weiss' vehicle at the intersection of 31st Street and East River Road Northeast, the two got out of their cars and a verbal argument ensued. At some point during the confrontation, Weiss went back to his vehicle to retrieve a 9 mm pistol, according to Rochester police.


When Weiss produced the gun, Rahim got close to Weiss and allegedly told him, "I f----ing dare you to do it," according to witness accounts.

Weiss, 25, then fired a single shot, hitting Rahim in the chest, according to Rochester Police Lt. Mike Sadauskis. Police arrived to find Rahim on the street, unresponsive. He was transported by ambulance to Mayo Clinic Hospital-Saint Marys Campus, where he was declared dead.

According to the criminal complaint, Weiss told the officer at the scene that Rahim had grabbed at the gun, so he stepped back and shot once in self defense.

Ostrem called the self-defense claim the "central element" in the case. The decision of whether to charge Weiss hinged on what Minnesota law refers to as a "justifiable taking of life." That means a situation in which the actor reasonably fears "great bodily harm or death," or acts to stop a felony in his or her home.

"The easiest way to think about that, is you're allowed to use the same force against somebody that is being used against you," Ostrem said on Tuesday.

Rochester Police Capt. John Sherwin said Tuesday that Weiss was not physically injured in the confrontation, nor were "punches thrown." No other weapons were involved.

Minnesota is also a "duty to retreat" state, which means just that; you have a "duty to retreat" before defending yourself or others with force.

"What happened out there is pretty obvious to everybody," Ostrem said.

Rochester police also received another account of the incident on Tuesday afternoon, after a witness they were seeking came forward, Sadauskis said.

Weiss placed the 911 call, but a woman alerted a police officer on Broadway Avenue of the shooting she witnessed — from a car's length away — on Sunday morning. Her path was blocked by the collision but she saw the confrontation and shooting through her driver's side window, Sadauskis said.

The officer the witness flagged down and alerted was the first one on scene, Sadauskis said.

Second-degree murder carries a maximum sentence of not more than 40 years.



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Original story
https://www.postbulletin.com/news/cr...561812695.html

One dead in shooting following car crash


A 17-year-old Rochester man was shot and killed Sunday morning at a Northeast Rochester intersection after a two-vehicle crash led to a confrontation between two drivers, Rochester police say.

Police say Muhammed Rahim did not have a pulse when he was was transported by ambulance to Mayo Clinic Hospital - Saint Marys Campus. He was declared dead upon arrival.

The shooter, 25-year-old Alexander William Weiss, of Rochester, was detained at the scene and arrested. Rochester Police Capt. John Shewin said Weiss could face second-degree murder charges, but one focus of the investigation will be whether Weiss was acting in self-defense and justified in shooting the victim.


"This is an incredible and unfortunate set of circumstances for everyone involved," Sherwin said.

Sherwin said police were called to the intersection of 31st Street and East River Road Northeast after a two-vehicle accident.

Police said Rahim was northbound on East River Road when he lost control of his vehicle in the snow-packed intersection while trying to make a right-hand turn onto 31st street. His vehicle slid across the street and crashed into a ditch on the north side of the road.

Weiss, who was westbound on 31st street, was nearly hit by Rahim's vehicle. Weiss took evasive action, hit his brakes and slid past Rahim's car. Rahim, trying to get out of the ditch, reversed his vehicle and collided with Weiss's vehicle.

With Rahim in the car at the time of accident was a 17-year-old male and two females, 18 and 16.

A confrontation then ensued. Police say that according to eyewitness accounts, Rahim and the other 17-year-old got out of their vehicle and confronted Weiss. There was "some posturing and words exchanged," Sherwin said, and Rahim approached Weiss. Weiss, who police say has a permit to carry a handgun, reportedly told Rahim that he was armed and suggested that they wait for the police. At some point during the confrontation, Rahim was shot once. The weapon was a 9 mm handgun.

Rahim was on the ground and unresponsive when police arrived. First responders from Gold Cross ambulance were unable to detect a pulse on Rahim, who was transported to the hospital and declared dead when he got there.

Police say Weiss was on his way to referee a youth basketball game when the crash and shooting occurred. He does not have a criminal record, Sherwin said.

Sherwin said there is no evidence that the situation had anything to do with road rage.

"There is a self-defense claim being made by Weiss at this time, that he was in fear and that's why he shot the victim," Sherwin said.

Police said there may be more witnesses to the shooting than the three who were passengers in Rahim's vehicle. Investigators are searching for a newer-style, red SUV that was occupied by a white woman in her 30s, with brown hair and wearing a stocking cap. The woman reportedly was in the vicinity of the scene when the shooting took place. There might have been a male in the SUV with her.

Sherwin said police hope to wrap up their investigation and have a report delivered to the Olmsted County Attorney's Office by Tuesday. The county prosecutor will then determine whether Weiss remains in custody, is charged or not charged.

[WCMG]

Minnesota is a "duty to retreat" state, "At some point during the confrontation, Weiss went back to his vehicle to retrieve a 9 mm pistol" and then returned to the confrontation.

I don't see this turning out in favor of Weiss.

[internet troll]

Minnesota is a "duty to retreat" state, "At some point during the confrontation, Weiss went back to his vehicle to retrieve a 9 mm pistol" and then returned to the confrontation.

I don't see this turning out in favor of Weiss.

You are probably right. But if it turns out the kid was on drugs or the group was acting violent towards him, who knows.

This bothers me though The DA said ""What happened out there is pretty obvious to everybody," Ostrem said."
I don't really see what is so obvious and what he is saying. Spell it out. What is obvious?

[RockIsland]

"The easiest way to think about that, is you're allowed to use the same force against somebody that is being used against you," Ostrem said on Tuesday.

So you have to wait until someone shoots you to fire back?

Doesn't sound good for Mr. Weiss but I wasn't there.

He should have at least waited till he double-dog dared him.

[poconopashooter]

Each story paints a different picture.

first story makes it sound like Weiss went to retrieve his firearm from his vehicle and does not mention the other 17 yo male confronting him. sounds more like he may of had an opportunity to retreat and didn't, instead he intended to stand his ground.

the second story sounds like he was confronted by 2 male teens. no mention of him retrieving a firearm from the car and no indication of his opportunity or lack thereof to retreat. More plausible argument for self-defense.

[Christen]

Minnesota is a "duty to retreat" state, "At some point during the confrontation, Weiss went back to his vehicle to retrieve a 9 mm pistol" and then returned to the confrontation.

I don't see this turning out in favor of Weiss.

I agree with this. I'm not saying it is right/wrong, it just is. If I had the chance to retreat i would take it regardless of the "duty to retreat". Sounds like they got into a pissing contest and someone thought brandishing a gun would win, i wouldn't want to "win" that way.

[KCJones]

Can't really comment without knowing what truly happened.

For my own part even here in PA I don't see "Right to stand your ground" as a -requirement-... If I can retreat I'm gonna.

[knight0334]

According to Minnesota law - he's guilty.

He had an opportunity to leave, did so, then came back - that isn't going to pan out well for him.

Even in states where you have No Duty to Retreat - if you leave, then return, you're probably going to be fucked because the return would likely be viewed as an attempt to escalate the situation.

[American1776]

If im in my car and somebody threatens my life, I drive away. I’d rather ‘accidentally’ get into a car accident where I hit someone by accident, then have to shoot somebody.

[Carson]

Some people are not afraid of guns or getting shot or dying. After Rahim spat on him, saying “that’s not even a real gun” and “I f****** dare you to do it.” What was Weiss going to do?

Interestingly Weiss’s bumper sticker ‘Gun Control Means Hitting Your Target’ was mentioned. How do you think that is going to work out in a criminal or civil trial ?