Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    Quote Originally Posted by j_h_smith View Post
    How would it work if I'm a Maryland resident with a Non-Resident Permit from New Hampshire? Since I carry in Pa anyway, just curious.
    For obtaining a LTCF?

    You need to have a permit/license from your state of residence to obtain a LTCF as a non resident.

  2. #22
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    Oct 2012
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    Douglassville, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    I recall reading on here that one non-resident got his from the Sheriff's Office at the Reading airport, in and out in record time. That guy is pretty friendly and would probably be willing to help you out if you had any questions.

    Edit: BTW, Berks County.
    Last edited by Walleye Hunter; January 3rd, 2018 at 11:52 AM.
    If at first you don't succeed try a different angle.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krichardson View Post
    I think the sheriff's refusal is backed by state law.
    Where do you get any facts to back up your belief. I believe just the opposite and believe that the sheriff is required to issue to out of state applicants. I think a lawsuit would prove that.
    6109. Licenses.

    (a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

    (b) Place of application.--An individual who is 21 years of age or older may apply to a sheriff for a license to carry a firearm concealed on or about his person or in a vehicle within this Commonwealth. If the applicant is a resident of this Commonwealth, he shall make application with the sheriff of the county in which he resides or, if a resident of a city of the first class, with the chief of police of that city.

    Just says IF the person is a resident of PA then they are restricted to apply to the sheriff of their residence.

  4. #24
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    (Susquehanna County)
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    (Corrected, not the OP) J_H_Smith typed he is using a Non-Resident NH permit and is a resident of MD.. so it's a non-issue. He must have a permit from his state of residence. The only exception I know of is VT, I think.. not sure.. All the rest, you would need a home state permit to apply in PA
    Last edited by Parrisk; January 5th, 2018 at 11:14 AM.
    Retired US Army
    NRA Life Member, GOA, USCCA
    "Artificial intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity"

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parrisk View Post
    Aye... but OP said he is using a Non-Resident NH permit and is a resident of MD.. so it's a non-issue. He must have a permit from his state of residence. The only exception I know of is VT, I think.. not sure.. All the rest, you would need a home state permit to apply in PA
    Either I'm missing something or your confusing his situation with someone elses. He said that he has a CC permit for his home state, no mention of what state that is.
    If at first you don't succeed try a different angle.

  6. #26
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    (Cumberland County)
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter View Post
    Either I'm missing something or your confusing his situation with someone elses. He said that he has a CC permit for his home state, no mention of what state that is.
    Ditto on the confusion.

    If he has a permit from his state of residence (or lives in a no-permit-needed state like Vermont), it should be a slam-dunk to get the PA LTCF

    If he's operating on a non-res permit from somewhere other than his state of residence, then no dice for PA.

    At least that's my understanding.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin.

  7. #27
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    Apr 2011
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    Legally, all sheriffs are required to issue non-resident permits. The statute says "shall issue", the same as for residents. If they refuse, your option is to look for another, or sue. The latter will cost you a few thousand dollars, and AFAIK, has never been done anywhere in the state.
    So far as I know, you are correct - no one has sued sheriffs for refusing to issue non-resident permits.

    However, one sheriff was threatened with legal action and backed down juuuuuuuust enough to take away the citizen's legal standing. As you may recall, many counties that border NY have been refusing to accept applications from non-residents. By doing so, they avoid explicitly denying anyone's LTCF, despite their actions having essentially the same effect. Here's the story:

    Back when the border counties started doing this, I stated that I would fight it if the county my LTCF was from (Susquehanna) started doing the same. My LTCF expired in April of 2016, so in February of that year, I reached out to GunLawyer and started laying down the groundwork. We worked together to form a plan of exactly what I would say, how I would act, and what information I would (try to) obtain. In early April, I went down to the Susquehanna County sheriff's office and submitted my application for renewal. It all went down exactly as expected/planned: they refused to accept my application (in fact, they wouldn't even let me past the metal detector until I put up a big stink). So I asked to speak to the sheriff. Sheriff Lance Benedict came out and told me that he hasn't accepted non-resident permits since 2013. I said that I knew I wasn't going to change his mind, but that I had a right under PA law to receive a certified letter detailing the reason(s) for my denial. He stated that he wasn't denying my application, just refusing to accept it. I informed him that that constituted what was known as a constructive denial, and that I would be forced to appeal his decision in the court of common pleas. There was a fair bit of chest-puffing and attempts to bait me into reacting poorly, particularly by Chief Deputy Jon Record, but I maintained my calm yet confident demeanor and refused to take the bait. When the sheriff realized I was not going to be goaded into reacting poorly, he asked me to step back into his office, and I agreed.

    We had what I would describe as a cordial discussion, lasting about 45 minutes. He first explained his reasons for refusing non-resident applications: not getting informed of prohibitions/arrests/mental health issues/etc. I stated that I understood his position, but that he did not have the statutory authority to refuse applications. Under PA law, he is required to accept and process all applications, and approve or deny them within 45 days. Denials are limited to a set of criteria defined in PA 6109. I repeated that while I did not expect to change his mind, that this was an important issue to me and that I would have to appeal this constructive denial in the court of common pleas.

    He responded that I had the right to take him to court at any time, but that he would like me to wait a bit, as he was working on an agreement with Sheriff Harder (Broome County) to offer non-resident licenses between our counties. I told him that since I could still carry on my LTCF for six months past expiration, I would hold off filing for up to five months... but I made it clear that I would be filing. I left my contact information with the Sheriff and asked him to call me if any developments popped up.

    GL and I made preliminary plans for him to represent me at the hearing.

    Less than two weeks later, I received a call from Sheriff Benedict. He informed me that there would be a press release the next week announcing an agreement between the counties to issue non-resident licenses, and that I was welcome to apply anytime after May 1st, which I did.

    Now, whether or not my actions played any role here is certainly up for debate. And, of course, this didn't really resolve the issue I was looking to correct, it just took away my legal standing. But I nonetheless think this revealed an important reality: the sheriffs are abundantly aware that they are behaving in an unlawful manner - they need to be challenged by someone willing to follow through. Unfortunately, very few non-residents are willing to do so - it's a lot easier to go to another county that follows the law. I think the only way this will get fixed is if they start to pull the same shit on residents.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    Thank you for the above post. However, it has left me confused.

    What is the nature of the agreement between these two Sheriffs and how does that interplay with their obligation to accept all applications and issue approval or denial within 45 days?

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    One country sheriff is in Pennsylvania, the other county sheriff is in New York. Both counties share a common border.

    Despite New York State law specifically not recognizing licenses/permits/whatevers from any place other than New York, New York's county sheriff will recognize and issue New York State licenses to that adjacent county, and the Pennsylvania county sheriff will do the same.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Out of State Permit - I got turned away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    One country sheriff is in Pennsylvania, the other county sheriff is in New York. Both counties share a common border.

    Despite New York State law specifically not recognizing licenses/permits/whatevers from any place other than New York, New York's county sheriff will recognize and issue New York State licenses to that adjacent county, and the Pennsylvania county sheriff will do the same.
    I see. So you're staying that you positioned yourself to sue, and this deal removes your standing to sue. I see that now. But it still doesn't resolve the underlying issue. Problem is, now "we" gotta find someone else to file a suit. Is that the gist of it?

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