Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    The sale did take place last year. A situation arose in which we were kindly informed by an LEO that transfer of ownership must be completed. We were not aware of this, and as ignorance of the law is no excuse and we are law abiding citizens, we wish to transfer the weapon legally.
    Correction: The sale took place this past July. I usually only come to PA in December but we made a special trip up.

  2. #12
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    Aug 2013
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    Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania
    (Lehigh County)
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    Thumbs up Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    How do you do a thumbs up?


    Do a reply with quote to see the code used!
    Illegitimus non carborundum est

  3. #13
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    Feb 2013
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    Upper Darby, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.K View Post
    Do you need to prove ownership of the dining room table you're selling on Craigslist?

    Or your old lawn mower?

    Desk chair?

    Any of the old tools on your table at a yard sale?

    Then why would you think you need to prove ownership for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by RockIsland View Post
    Possibly becase firearms are slightly more regulated than old lawn mowers, desk chairs, and old tools.
    Ah, young padawan, you begin to see the issue. You're coming at it from the wrong direction, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    How do you do a thumbs up?
    Nope, not yet...

    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    Those above mentioned items don't require an FFL.
    Now *you* are beginning to see. Again, however, from the wrong direction.

    A saw is a tool.

    A wrench is a tool.

    A hammer is a tool. One, BTW, that is used in more murders than all long guns COMBINED.

    A gun is a tool. Why - under the Constitution - does .gov feel they have any say in private commerce between individuals related to this tool when they don't say anything about the others?

    Your statements *should* be:
    Quote Originally Posted by RockIsland View Post
    Why is it that firearms are slightly more regulated than old lawn mowers, desk chairs, and old tools.
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    Why is it that Those above mentioned items don't require an FFL?
    To answer badfish's revised question: because it would be silly. There's no point.

    To answer RockIslands revised question: they shouldn't be, because there's no point, but we let it get that way.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Quakertown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.K View Post
    Ah, young padawan, you begin to see the issue. You're coming at it from the wrong direction, however.


    Nope, not yet...


    Now *you* are beginning to see. Again, however, from the wrong direction.

    A saw is a tool.

    A wrench is a tool.

    A hammer is a tool. One, BTW, that is used in more murders than all long guns COMBINED.

    A gun is a tool. Why - under the Constitution - does .gov feel they have any say in private commerce between individuals related to this tool when they don't say anything about the others?

    Your statements *should* be:

    and

    To answer badfish's revised question: because it would be silly. There's no point.

    To answer RockIslands revised question: they shouldn't be, because there's no point, but we let it get that way.

    I don't disagree that guns are tools, and should have no more regulation than a pair of garden shears.

    However, I don't ignore the fact that the law treats them differently, because IMHO the law is unconstitutional or just plain stupid.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Montco, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    Correction: The sale took place this past July. I usually only come to PA in December but we made a special trip up.
    Sounds like you are in the middle of a legal mine field if you transferred a handgun across state lines and sold it without the involvement of an FFL. Perhaps I misunderstood the scenario.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Brookville, Pennsylvania
    (Jefferson County)
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    Default Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    Thank you. That seems logical enough. A bit surprising that I don't need to prove ownership.
    Even in Florida you do not need to prove ownership(like you do in PA).

    Handguns in FL can be sold between FL residents as if they were coffee tables.


    In PA, a PA dealer will assume you own it when he enters it into his boundbook.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    West Alexander, Pennsylvania
    (Washington County)
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    Default Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    My half-brother lives in PA. I live in Florida. Last year, I sold him a pistol that I had bought brand new about 4 years prior. The only "paperwork" I have is the point of sale receipt which doesn't list the firearm and a paper that shows record of the dealer buying said gun from their supplier. What will we need to provide to an FFL dealer in PA to complete this transaction?
    Call ahead before arriving at the FFL to verify they will do this, but here's our process at Washington County Machine Guns:

    1: Half brother arrives with the pistol and a copy of your FL DL.
    2: We log it in from you.
    3: He fills out an ATF 4473 and PA Application/Record of Sale Form (SP4-113).
    4: We run the PICS check.
    5: If he passes, he takes the item home.

    The firearm is now legally transferred from you to him and is logged in the PA "database".

  8. #18
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    Dec 2012
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    Yulee, Florida
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    Default Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by Remington788 View Post
    Sounds like you are in the middle of a legal mine field if you transferred a handgun across state lines and sold it without the involvement of an FFL. Perhaps I misunderstood the scenario.
    Ok, here's what happened. I transported the gun to PA from Florida, which is comepletely legal. I sold him the gun. Only ever having done resident to resident gun sales in the past, I wasn't aware of the stipulations. I most definitely should have looked up the laws regarding this and looking back, I don't know why I didn't as I am always sure to follow the letter of the law. My bad. Lesson learned.

    My brother was using a rental car for a few days while his was in the shop. He left the gun in the rental car when he returned it. (Yes, I know, irresponsible). The rental company turned it over to police as is their policy.

    I don't remember what department handled it but they were courteous and professional. The "issue" arose when they looked up the serial number. It showed up as being registered in Florida or what have you. They would have easily returned it to him right away except for this issue.

    To shorten the rest of the story, I faxed them the paperwork I had on it showing it was mine and they did their obligatory ATF inquiry. Seven to ten days later, my brother got the gun back and the evidence technician handling the case informed us of the proper way to transfer possession.

  9. #19
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    Dec 2006
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    Bucks, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    Ok, here's what happened. I transported the gun to PA from Florida, which is comepletely legal. I sold him the gun. Only ever having done resident to resident gun sales in the past, I wasn't aware of the stipulations. I most definitely should have looked up the laws regarding this and looking back, I don't know why I didn't as I am always sure to follow the letter of the law. My bad. Lesson learned.

    My brother was using a rental car for a few days while his was in the shop. He left the gun in the rental car when he returned it. (Yes, I know, irresponsible). The rental company turned it over to police as is their policy.

    I don't remember what department handled it but they were courteous and professional. The "issue" arose when they looked up the serial number. It showed up as being registered in Florida or what have you. They would have easily returned it to him right away except for this issue.

    To shorten the rest of the story, I faxed them the paperwork I had on it showing it was mine and they did their obligatory ATF inquiry. Seven to ten days later, my brother got the gun back and the evidence technician handling the case informed us of the proper way to transfer possession.
    It's a Federal crime to directly transfer a firearm (handgun or long gun) from one person to the resident of another state. There's no "half-brother exception", unless the transferor died first and it's being inherited.

    The police in your situation were being nice, and ignoring the violation of Federal law. They also ignored the violation of Pennsylvania law, which prohibits direct person to person handgun transfers (but allows direct long gun transfers between PA residents.) You got lucky. There could have been serious criminal charges.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  10. #20
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    Nov 2013
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    erie, Pennsylvania
    (Erie County)
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    Default Re: Paperwork needed to transfer a pistol?

    Quote Originally Posted by badfish View Post
    My half brother lives in PA. I live in Florida. Last year, I sold him a pistol that I had bought brand new about 4 years prior. The only "paperwork" I have is the point of sale receipt which doesn't list the firearm and a paper that shows record of the dealer buying said gun from their supplier. What will we need to provide to an FFL dealer in PA to complete this transaction?
    I've sold a few pistols in PA. I've never had to show anything for the gun being sold. Just my drivers license. Also sold a rifle in Florida. Again, never had to show anything. If you don't have Florida carry permit, make sure you have gun locked in trunk until sale. IANAL, just my experience.

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