Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    Quote Originally Posted by zachomega View Post
    I'd have a hard time selling some of this stuff. Not because of intrinsic value or sentiment. Selling anything with a swastika on it complicates things.

    Some of the other stuff isn't worth anything such as photographs, German death cards (in rough shape), pins.

    To answer your question directly though, would I sell below value, no. Do I think cmp is asking too much? Only if people don't want to pay it.

    My original point was that if i am looking to buy something for historical reasons only, I don't need to.

    My second point was just a question about how many guys are complaining that they are shot out but then aren't going to shoot them anyway. I think we actually agree on that point. I just didn't clarify my position at all.

    -Zach

    Thanks Zach. I wasn't trying to call you out specifically but was rather just trying to get some folks here to think. We see lots of people post pictures of guns that have special meaning to them or that they'd never sell. Then these same folks act horrified at the thought of buying a gun at above some arbitrary value they set because it has historic value. It can't be both ways. Either guns are all the same - GI style 1911s are all worth $500 for example - or they're not. And since it's provable that guns of all sorts that have some history behind them sell for more than the same guns without history, the outrage here rings hollow.

    Below is a picture of a mixmaster 1911 I own, likely similar to those CMP will offer. The frame was made in 1914 and probably served in WWI but it was rebuilt at Raritan Arsenal just before WWII as the war in Europe was threatening to drag us into the conflict and the Army realized it was ill-equipped. It happens to be one of the tightest GI 1911s I have which tells me the armorers took their job of arming US servicemen seriously and wanted to put out a good product.

    This particular gun was carried by a B-17 bombardier from Ohio who later earned the rank of Major. He flew on several planes during the war and had a very successful career. This 1911 was with him on his missions and almost certainly gave him a little sense of (false?) security in case he got shot down behind enemy lines.

    In my opinion, anyone who looks at this gun as a "shot-out rattle trap" worth $500 doesn't deserve to own it because that ignores its place in history and disrespects the guy who carried it and cherished it until he died.

    Last edited by thebearpack; December 5th, 2017 at 01:17 PM.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    se, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    .

    Just received this, THANK GOD for this provision otherwise who know's what havoc could be wrought

    BATF and the United States Army prefer the second background check be performed by a "store front" FFL dealer.

    Some preliminary decisions further clarified:
    1. Decisions concerning the grade and pricing of the 1911s will not be made until inspection has occurred of a substantial quantity which will take an estimated 150 days post receipt.
    2. All laws pertaining to the sale of 1911s by CMP will be strictly obeyed.
    3. Potential purchasers will have to provide to CMP a new set of documents exhibiting: 1) proof of U.S. Citizenship, 2) proof of membership in a CMP affiliated club, 3) proof of participation in a marksmanship activity, 4) a new form 2A with notary, 5) a signed copy of the 01 Federal Firearms License in which the 1911 will be transferred to.
    4. A NICS background check will be performed by CMP on the customer to assure the customer is eligible to purchase prior to shipment to the FFL licensed dealer. The customer must receive a "proceed" from NICS prior to shipment of the pistol to the FFL licensed dealer.
    5. The CMP customer will be required to complete a form 4473 in person at the FFL dealers place of business, successfully passing a NICS check performed by the FFL holder, before the pistol can be transferred. This is a second NICS check performed on the customer.
    6. Qualified CMP customer will only be allowed to purchase one 1911 per calendar year.
    7. No 1911s available in the CMP stores, or on line, only mail order sales.
    8. CMP will set the date in which it will accept orders for the 1911s. The date will be posted to the world.
    9. Orders will only be accepted via mail order delivery.
    10. Orders will only be accepted post marked on the date or after, no early orders.
    11. Once CMP receives 10,000 orders, customer names will be loaded into the Random Number Generator.
    12. The Random Number Generator will provide a list of names in sequence order through a random picking process to CMP.
    13. Customers will be contacted in the sequence provided by the Random Number Generator.
    14. When the customer is contacted a list of 1911 grades and pricing options that are available will be offered for selection of one.
    15. As CMP proceeds down the sequenced list less grade and pricing options will be available. Again, this done completely random.

    Note: 1911 type pistols purchased from CMP cannot be transferred to 03 FFL (curio and relic) license. BATF and the United States Army prefer the second background check be performed by a "store front" FFL dealer. Each customer purchasing a 1911 type pistol from CMP will be subjected to two NICS background checks, one performed by CMP and the other performed by the FFL dealer the pistol is being shipped to.


    Mark Johnson
    Chief Operating Officer
    Civilian Marksmanship Program
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."- The Papers of Ben Franklin

  3. #23
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    Mar 2006
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    se, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    Quote Originally Posted by thebearpack View Post
    This particular gun was carried by a B-17 bombardier from Ohio who later earned the rank of Major. He flew on several planes during the war and had a very successful career. This 1911 was with him on his missions and almost certainly gave him a little sense of (false?) security in case he got shot down behind enemy lines.

    Having that type of history on a particular firearm is what makes them interesting (to me) and IMO imparts value. Of course everyone has their idea of what that value should be (or not be). I tend to favor items that have a history so I would tend to (in general) pay above what the going rate for a similar functioning item without the history.

    .
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."- The Papers of Ben Franklin

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania
    (Lehigh County)
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    Default Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    Quote Originally Posted by zachomega View Post
    I'd have a hard time selling some of this stuff. Not because of intrinsic value or sentiment. Selling anything with a swastika on it complicates things.

    Some of the other stuff isn't worth anything such as photographs, German death cards (in rough shape), pins.

    To answer your question directly though, would I sell below value, no. Do I think cmp is asking too much? Only if people don't want to pay it.

    My original point was that if i am looking to buy something for historical reasons only, I don't need to.

    My second point was just a question about how many guys are complaining that they are shot out but then aren't going to shoot them anyway. I think we actually agree on that point. I just didn't clarify my position at all.

    -Zach
    If you think that stuff has NO value you should have stopped at the Forks gun show last weekend. There is a good market for all kinds of war memorabilia, even photos and small political and military pins. Then there are folks who do not want to touch it because of the background behind it. I like to seperate the two, based on the old truism that 'Those that forget history are destined to repeat it!' or thereabouts.
    Last edited by gghbi; December 5th, 2017 at 03:06 PM.
    Illegitimus non carborundum est

  5. #25
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    Jun 2010
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    North Penn area, Pennsylvania
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    Unhappy Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    This particular gun was carried by a B-17 bombardier from Ohio who later earned the rank of Major. He flew on several planes during the war and had a very successful career. This 1911 was with him on his missions and almost certainly gave him a little sense of (false?) security in case he got shot down behind enemy lines.
    Quote Originally Posted by crffl View Post
    Having that type of history on a particular firearm is what makes them interesting (to me) and IMO imparts value. Of course everyone has their idea of what that value should be (or not be). I tend to favor items that have a history so I would tend to (in general) pay above what the going rate for a similar functioning item without the history.

    .
    Buy the gun , not the story behind it. Unless it comes with irrefutable proof and provenance.

    Years ago , a neighborhood guy told me he had the Army .45 auto his dad carried in WWII/KOREA(?) , forget which. Had it's original holster. Wanted to sell it. I wanted to see it and possibly buy it. So I go to his home ,and it turned out to be a lightly rusted Llama with proof marks from 1975 in a USGI holster. No amount of proof could convince him it was not what he was saying.

    The holster had it's wedge removed and was also worthless.
    Last edited by abner13; December 5th, 2017 at 03:56 PM.
    I don't speak English , I talk American!

  6. #26
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    Mar 2006
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    se, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    Quote Originally Posted by abner13 View Post
    Buy the gun , not the story behind it. Unless it comes with irrefutable proof and provenance.

    'History' is not the same as a 'story behind' the item. As you pointed out 'History' would include evidence, not just someone's word for it. That evidence is what gives that value/credence to its history.

    .
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."- The Papers of Ben Franklin

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    Quote Originally Posted by abner13 View Post
    Buy the gun , not the story behind it. Unless it comes with irrefutable proof and provenance.
    Quote Originally Posted by crffl View Post
    'History' is not the same as a 'story behind' the item. As you pointed out 'History' would include evidence, not just someone's word for it. That evidence is what gives that value/credence to its history.
    You're both right. I happen to place a monetary value on that gun of around $1250 to maybe as high as $1,400 to the right buyer for a variety of reasons including it's uniform finish, RA-P marked grips, and rare & mint small G Colt barrel. The story adds nothing to the monetary value but adds to its value TO ME and makes it a piece I'm not likely to part with. Still, if I listed it at $1,250 it would probably sell in minutes.

    My point in showing it was to quiet the "nothing but a bunch of worn-out junkers" naysayers who haven't seen one of these arsenal rebuilds but still think that the value is $500 because they say so. There could be any number of rare parts on these that collectors will flip for - think of uncut WRA op rods for Garands - so to dismiss them sight unseen as junk is unbelievably ignorant and foolish.

    Latest word from CMP is that they fully expect to have to use a lottery system to dole out the first 10,000. That tells me the naysayers are in the minority.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Levittown, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    Many years ago (when it was still legal) an older woman I knew gave me a break-open .38 S&W caliber revolver. She told me she carried it when she worked for the OSS. Never occurred to me to ask for a letter to that effect. Don't know how much if any value that would add, but it's just my story now.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Near Indiana, Pennsylvania
    (Indiana County)
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    Default Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    How did these 1911’s get out into the public for sale?

    When did the military put these up for sale in the past?

  10. #30
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    Default Re: CMP 1911 purchase requirements!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bang View Post
    Many years ago (when it was still legal) an older woman I knew gave me a break-open .38 S&W caliber revolver. She told me she carried it when she worked for the OSS. Never occurred to me to ask for a letter to that effect. Don't know how much if any value that would add, but it's just my story now.
    Could you have S&W see if they can check where is was sent?

    Does S&W do this?

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