Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    Toujours prÍt

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Southern Huntingdon, Pennsylvania
    (Huntingdon County)
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    I just got off the phone with my local Game Commission office. They said that if I did convert it to be manually operated I can use it.
    Because Failure Is Not An Option

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Chalfont, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Unless you enjoy arguments and taking your chances before a local District Justice who probably hates you, I wouldn't do it.

    It looks like you're hunting with an AR-15.

    The fish cop would be justified in citing you.

    Then, assuming that he hasn't confiscated your rifle, you have the daunting task of proving that your rifle is properly modified, inside a gun-free courtroom. I had to get some knives into court as exhibits once, and another time I brought in a toy gun. Neither incident won me any points with the judges.

    Sure, you could pay a certified firearms expert to test it, write up an evaluation, and appear in court for you. That's probably around $5,000. And you'll need a lawyer, because the GC will object to admitting his testimony, and you'll need to push back.

    Per the laws, sure, your single-shot rifle is probably no longer a "semi-automatic rifle". Just like it's not legally possible for millions of Mexicans and Guatemalans and Canadians to sneak into the USA and stay here in violation of our laws. And the IRS and the FBI are politically-neutral organizations, under the clear statutory language. Reality can be unpleasantly different.
    This is exactly what gunlawyer told me a few years ago when I asked him about it.
    I'm old and cranky, have lots of hours testifying in a courtroom and it just sticks in my craw that the pcg puts themselves ahead of the legislature when dreaming up these dopey fudd policies. That's why I continue to hunt with my FAL.

    Do not go by what they tell you on the phone- get it in writing- like I did.
    And good luck with that, it's like pulling teeth.
    Crusader's local #556 South Central Asia chapter

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    I think a smart game law enforcement officer would seize the AR and submit it for examination, requesting an expert testify as to the function of the questioned arm.

    I think a practical game law enforcement would see if the arm repeats, right there in the woods where discovered...but may be precluded by law or commission regs.

    A letter from the Chairperson of the Game Commission would be invaluable.

    I once had such a letter for the PA turnpike. I belonged to a national motorcycle club (not AMA) and one of the members wrote the Commission about the toll-takers charging Class II for the third axle on sidecar rigs and towed-behind single-axle trailers. The Commissioner wrote that the described rigs were class I and encouraged us to copy it and pass it around.

    One day we came thru a toll and the taker rang up Class II. I showed her the letter. She called her supervisor. The supervisor had a fit, declaring a little Volkswagen pulling a trailer has to pay. I looked at her and just said, "Really".

    Idiot supervisors are everywhere. You just never know...

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Chalfont, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    I have a letter from the Director of the Bureau of Wildlife Protection.
    It states in part that the Game Commission's stance on the matter is that the firearm needs to be PERMANENTLY ALTERED to a manually operated arm to be considered a legal hunting arm.

    My issue with the above is 1, the statute clearly defines what a manually operated arm is vs. a semiautomatic arm and there is no mention whatever of "permanently altered" in the statute. An arm is either semiautomatic or it is not, no?

    Another issue is "permanently altered" is not defined either by the BWP, PGC or by statute. We all know there is no such thing as permanent. I'm sitting in a gunsmith shop right now- surrounded by tools that could convert a Waring blende into a grenade launcher, given enough time.

    My point being, the PGC and BWM are acting beyond the statute by adding to it (must be permanently altered) but giving no guidance on just what exactly that might be.
    There are other issues as well such as the horrible state of their training program. After digging around a bit, my opinion is this agency needs to be taken over by the AG's office and restructured from the ground up.
    Crusader's local #556 South Central Asia chapter

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bucks, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    Quote Originally Posted by cdi View Post
    I have a letter from the Director of the Bureau of Wildlife Protection.
    It states in part that the Game Commission's stance on the matter is that the firearm needs to be PERMANENTLY ALTERED to a manually operated arm to be considered a legal hunting arm.

    My issue with the above is 1, the statute clearly defines what a manually operated arm is vs. a semiautomatic arm and there is no mention whatever of "permanently altered" in the statute. An arm is either semiautomatic or it is not, no?

    Another issue is "permanently altered" is not defined either by the BWP, PGC or by statute. We all know there is no such thing as permanent. I'm sitting in a gunsmith shop right now- surrounded by tools that could convert a Waring blende into a grenade launcher, given enough time.

    My point being, the PGC and BWM are acting beyond the statute by adding to it (must be permanently altered) but giving no guidance on just what exactly that might be.
    There are other issues as well such as the horrible state of their training program. After digging around a bit, my opinion is this agency needs to be taken over by the AG's office and restructured from the ground up.
    I can't say that you're wrong, I'll only suggest that we have to pick our battles. It's true that progress is made by incrementally fighting evil and oppression (and the reverse is true, that evil advances by slow, incremental infringements).

    If you choose to push this issue, be prepared to fight until the end, to expend the legal resources and time and money required to get the goal you want.

    Nobody should be suckered into a fight that's going to be more costly than they expected. Some fights are clearly worth it, even if you're probably going to lose (fighting 6 armed gangbangers who are kidnapping your daughter, for example). Others are not. And we have to prioritize. For example, I would prioritize relief for the thousands of sane people with old 302 commitments, over granting standing to everyone to fight local gun laws that are never enforced; others went a different way, and achieved neither goal. That's diversity for you.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Chalfont, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    As usual, wisdom from Phil.
    In a legal vacuum I'm right as a mother Fn' riot, as a practical matter with an anti-gun judiciary it will likely go badly.
    We are just THAT close to semiauto hunting in Pa.- I don't want to be the guy that shoots holes in it. I might just go back to my bolt gun for this year, or head up to N.Y.
    Crusader's local #556 South Central Asia chapter

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Next to the Corn
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    I figured if I removed the gas tube and replaced it with a short section of round stock pinned in the gas block that would more than suffice. Rifle obviously won't cycle because it will not get any gas. The mod wouldn't cost me anything because I can machine it myself. I am reluctant to do it primarily due to the chance of having my rifle taken by an ignorant bunny cop and beat all to hell until I can get it back.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bucks, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    Quote Originally Posted by dkf View Post
    I figured if I removed the gas tube and replaced it with a short section of round stock pinned in the gas block that would more than suffice. Rifle obviously won't cycle because it will not get any gas. The mod wouldn't cost me anything because I can machine it myself. I am reluctant to do it primarily due to the chance of having my rifle taken by an ignorant bunny cop and beat all to hell until I can get it back.
    I'm just curious, since you'd be effectively blocking the gas port and increasing the pressure inside the barrel, is there any chance that you'd get blow-back cycling of the gun, or would the bolt lugs stay locked and prevent the BCG from recoiling?
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Next to the Corn
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    Default Re: AR conversion to bolt action for hunting

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    I'm just curious, since you'd be effectively blocking the gas port and increasing the pressure inside the barrel, is there any chance that you'd get blow-back cycling of the gun, or would the bolt lugs stay locked and prevent the BCG from recoiling?
    Just a little burst of gas pressure is going up the tiny gas port, it won't affect anything blocking it off. The bolt on the AR will stay locked because it depends on the carrier moving back (from the gas) to rotate the bolt and unlock it. The plug I mentioned is basically the same as turning off the gas on an adjustable gas block. It is just not something you can easily change in the field and you don't have to remove the existing gas block to go back and forth between plug and gas tube.

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