Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #51
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    Default Re: Out of state dl, philly ltcf. Arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by jcourson View Post
    The verbage is "shall be revoked." Even if the issuing agency hadn't pushed it through the red tape yet for some reason, the LEO would have had just cause to assume it was revoked and since ignorance of the law is no (legal) excuse, the friend could still be charged.

    Since it also follows that "Notice shall be sent by certified mail...and, at that time, notice shall also be provided to the Pennsylvania State Police...that the license is no longer valid." Presumably, the LEO ran it and saw that it was revoked and that the friend was committing a felony ("“any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle…without a valid and lawfully issued license…commits a felony").
    It doesn't work that way. Revocation is an explicit act by the issuing authority. If that act never happens, it isn't revoked.

    That text you are citing says the issuing authority shall revoke the license on those specific pretenses. If the LTCF that the person in question has hasn't been revoked, it is still valid. It is not an automatic event like the expiration is.

    Even a felony conviction doesn't create an automatic revocation of the LTCF. It requires the issuing authority to revoke the license. (for clarity, even a LTCF possessed by a felon wouldn't allow the felon to carry due to another clause prohibiting possession - but the license itself would still be valid until revoked or it expires)

    You have at least (1) lawyer who specifically practices firearms law telling you exactly what I'm saying. And I can ping 2 others to back that up.
    Last edited by knight0334; October 13th, 2017 at 09:56 PM.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Out of state dl, philly ltcf. Arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by jcourson View Post
    The verbage is "shall be revoked." Even if the issuing agency hadn't pushed it through the red tape yet for some reason, the LEO would have had just cause to assume it was revoked and since ignorance of the law is no (legal) excuse, the friend could still be charged.

    Since it also follows that "Notice shall be sent by certified mail...and, at that time, notice shall also be provided to the Pennsylvania State Police...that the license is no longer valid." Presumably, the LEO ran it and saw that it was revoked and that the friend was committing a felony ("“any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle…without a valid and lawfully issued license…commits a felony").
    No, the LEO is NOT justified in failing to check the LTCF verification system, make a random assumption, and arrest a citizen who has his LTCF in hand. And if he doesn't know about that phone number, well......ignorance is no excuse, right?

    "(l) Firearms License Validation System.--

    (1) The Pennsylvania State Police shall establish a nationwide toll-free telephone number, known as the Firearms License Validation System, which shall be operational seven days a week, 24 hours per day, for the purpose of responding to law enforcement inquiries regarding the validity of any Pennsylvania license to carry a firearm.

    (2) Notwithstanding any other law regarding the confidentiality of information, inquiries to the Firearms License Validation System regarding the validity of any Pennsylvania license to carry a firearm may only be made by law enforcement personnel acting within the scope of their official duties.
    "
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Out of state dl, philly ltcf. Arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    No, the LEO is NOT justified in failing to check the LTCF verification system, make a random assumption, and arrest a citizen who has his LTCF in hand. And if he doesn't know about that phone number, well......ignorance is no excuse, right?

    "(l) Firearms License Validation System.--

    (1) The Pennsylvania State Police shall establish a nationwide toll-free telephone number, known as the Firearms License Validation System, which shall be operational seven days a week, 24 hours per day, for the purpose of responding to law enforcement inquiries regarding the validity of any Pennsylvania license to carry a firearm.

    (2) Notwithstanding any other law regarding the confidentiality of information, inquiries to the Firearms License Validation System regarding the validity of any Pennsylvania license to carry a firearm may only be made by law enforcement personnel acting within the scope of their official duties.
    "
    That would be the very next paragraph that I wrote where I said that, presumably, he checked to see if it was valid.
    Thanks for the info about the validation system, though. Been in PA for almost a year (after 3 in crappy California) and I was wondering how they did that here.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Out of state dl, philly ltcf. Arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by jcourson View Post
    That would be the very next paragraph that I wrote where I said that, presumably, he checked to see if it was valid.
    Thanks for the info about the validation system, though. Been in PA for almost a year (after 3 in crappy California) and I was wondering how they did that here.
    I challenged the statement you made. The fact that you also made an alternative and conflicting assumption later doesn't change the fact that you were incorrect that the cop would be justified in making an assumption that the LTCF in his hand was somehow not real. If we're making crap up, maybe the OP's friend actually had a Texas carry license, too, meaning that he wouldn't be unable to apply for a PA LTCF as a non-resident.

    So we're left with this: either the cop called it in and was told it was valid; or he was told it was revoked; or he didn't call and he was acting in ignorance. Only one of those would justify an arrest or extended detention.

    You're welcome to the info, it's all in the statute, section 6109 of the UFA. Here at PAFOA, we tend to give more weight to the statutes and case law than to wild-assed guesses and paraphrasing "what a guy in a gun shop told me a couple years ago" and the like.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Out of state dl, philly ltcf. Arrested

    What GL said (of course).

    The only thing I can add to that is, under your theory of due process, you ignore the fact that the statute clearly indicates license holder can appeal a revocation. Kinda hard to appeal an action that happens automatically, and with no govt notice...or any govt record to which the appeal would be applied....which is how it works with your theory of instant and autonomous revocation the second you move out of state. Probably why the same statute lays out requirements for giving notice of a revocation, should one occur.

    On a related note...hey, guess what? If you are issued an LTCF as an out of state resident, it doesn’t become invalid when you become a state resident, nor are you required to notify anyone that you became a state resident, nor are you required to now get a new LTCF as a state resident from the sheriff of whatever shithole county you may have been unfortunate to move into - AND even if the permit you were required to hold as an out of state resident expires, your LTCF is still valid, since you are now state resident. Ask me how I know (;

    On a related Note...it is pretty clear what effect 3 years living in California had on you. Hopefully, you will be able to eventually recover.
    Last edited by free; October 13th, 2017 at 11:20 PM.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Out of state dl, philly ltcf. Arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by jcourson View Post
    The verbage is "shall be revoked." Even if the issuing agency hadn't pushed it through the red tape yet for some reason, the LEO would have had just cause to assume it was revoked and since ignorance of the law is no (legal) excuse, the friend could still be charged.

    Since it also follows that "Notice shall be sent by certified mail...and, at that time, notice shall also be provided to the Pennsylvania State Police...that the license is no longer valid." Presumably, the LEO ran it and saw that it was revoked and that the friend was committing a felony ("“any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle…without a valid and lawfully issued license…commits a felony").

    >>Presumably, the LEO ran it and saw that it was revoked and that the friend was committing a felony ("“any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle…without a valid and lawfully issued license…commits a felony").<<

    This is not always true.

    Bill



    2002 Amendment. Act 172 added section 6105.1.

    § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

    (a) Offense defined.--

    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

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